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Old March 20th, 2011, 08:28 AM   #1
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Default Which is better, fascism or socialism?

If Obama = socialism, then Synder = fascism. Which would you rather have?
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Old March 20th, 2011, 08:29 AM   #2
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I want a happy medium.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 08:35 AM   #3
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if we are heading for a police type state then they already have a jump on it. with the DNR running about 21% of all the land within the state they have been been fine tuning the process for years. secondly who else do you know that can walk into someones garage looking for weapons & deer without probable cause?
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Old March 20th, 2011, 08:59 AM   #4
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If Obama = socialism, then Synder = fascism. Which would you rather have?
Obama = SUCK ASS
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Old March 20th, 2011, 09:05 AM   #5
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Snyder is hardly fascism.

If you're going to get theoretical, he's trying to reduce Obama-like socialism by making the state live within it's means - even if it means challenging powerful special-interest groups, namely unions and senior citizens.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #6
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Obama = SUCK ASS
Nice, what are you 10 years old?

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Snyder is hardly fascism.

If you're going to get theoretical, he's trying to reduce Obama-like socialism by making the state live within it's means - even if it means challenging powerful special-interest groups, namely unions and senior citizens.
Replacing our local elected officials with "emergency financial managers" is not fascism? Why can white collar workers get fat bonuses with outrageous pay, and your blue collar workers get stepped on because they are union workers, without being a union they would not have a voice. I'm guessing once the unions are broken up, that the blue collar hourly pay will drop and white collar pay and bonuses will go up. Not taking sides, just would like some insight, some facts, actual fact and not someone who acts like they are 10 years old. Thanks.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #7
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Nice, what are you 10 years old?



Replacing our local elected officials with "emergency financial managers" is not fascism? Why can white collar workers get fat bonuses with outrageous pay, and your blue collar workers get stepped on because they are union workers, without being a union they would not have a voice. I'm guessing once the unions are broken up, that the blue collar hourly pay will drop and white collar pay and bonuses will go up. Not taking sides, just would like some insight, some facts, actual fact and not someone who acts like they are 10 years old. Thanks.
Mr. Toes Is Mr. Toes. You would have to be around here long enough to understand it's kind of joke when he puts that. Kind of, but not really. He's actually a very smart guy. He just doesn't like to show it often

As far as your assumption on blue collar wages dropping if the unions get crushed....... There are quite a few guys on here that don't work union and have said that they, and thier fellow workers, make more money and are valued more then if they had unions. If you don't have a union to "Stand behind you" you have to work hard and show that you are worth something. The problem with alot of unions, especially teachers unions, is that you can be a horrible teacher, not do your job, or at least the bare minimum and make 3 times as much as someone at the bottom. There is no motivation to be better because you automatically get rewarded.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 09:56 AM   #8
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As far as your assumption on blue collar wages dropping if the unions get crushed....... There are quite a few guys on here that don't work union and have said that they, and thier fellow workers, make more money and are valued more then if they had unions. If you don't have a union to "Stand behind you" you have to work hard and show that you are worth something. The problem with alot of unions, especially teachers unions, is that you can be a horrible teacher, not do your job, or at least the bare minimum and make 3 times as much as someone at the bottom. There is no motivation to be better because you automatically get rewarded.
Those are great points, I think people should work hard! I also agree with the second one too. My sister in-law is a public school teacher and says that parents need to be more involved in their kids academics then they are, and until that changes it is a uphill battle. I think she sometimes feels like an over educated daycare worker?
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Old March 20th, 2011, 10:17 AM   #9
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Replacing our local elected officials with "emergency financial managers" is not fascism? Why can white collar workers get fat bonuses with outrageous pay, and your blue collar workers get stepped on because they are union workers, without being a union they would not have a voice. I'm guessing once the unions are broken up, that the blue collar hourly pay will drop and white collar pay and bonuses will go up. Not taking sides, just would like some insight, some facts, actual fact and not someone who acts like they are 10 years old. Thanks.
About "emergency financial managers": This would occur when the local officials have literally run through all of their money and the state is required to step in. As a taxpayer who doesn't live in Detroit, I want someone else at the helm when my tax dollars start flowing into Detroit schools because they've already demonstrated that they can't handle things. Throwing good money after bad has always been a losing strategy.

Want to retain local control? Don't tolerate incompetent elected officials (or their toadies/appointees) - even if your union endorses them. If the public employee union likes and backs a candidate, immediately place them under suspicion. Elections have consequences, even at the local level.

Breaking up unions? Not necessary. However, unions need to understand the realities of our world. Public employees cannot continue to have pay rates, benefits, etc... that outstrip the private sector that pays for it all out of reduced earnings. Business cannot afford unskilled labor at $50-$100/hour.

As a "white collar" guy, I've experienced vastly reduced benefits, and pay has shrunk as well - much more than our union folks, btw. Don't fall prey to thinking that executive compensation (which has gotten out of control and needs to be reined in) and "white collar" are the same.

The 50s, 60s, and 70s with never-ending growth, and companies giving into increasing union demands time and again (because they could pass the cost increases along) to avoid strikes will be shown to be a passing thing, like the wild west. Unions keep wanting to go back to those days (and who wouldn't?), but wishing ain't gonna make it so.

Look at how many TVs, radios, towels, clothing, and shoes are made in the U.S. We used to make virtually all of those things for ourselves. Now we make little or none. Unions did that.

The Dept of Energy has a program where they'll fund people replacing old appliances with new, more efficient "energy star" models. Few to no rebates are being handed out because the law requires the new energy star appliances have to be U.S.-made. There aren't any. Unions again.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 11:29 AM   #10
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About "emergency financial managers": This would occur when the local officials have literally run through all of their money and the state is required to step in. As a taxpayer who doesn't live in Detroit, I want someone else at the helm when my tax dollars start flowing into Detroit schools because they've already demonstrated that they can't handle things. Throwing good money after bad has always been a losing strategy.

Want to retain local control? Don't tolerate incompetent elected officials (or their toadies/appointees) - even if your union endorses them. If the public employee union likes and backs a candidate, immediately place them under suspicion. Elections have consequences, even at the local level.

Where are the checks and balances? So could Obama pass a ruling that if he sees a state to be in financial despair, then he too could appoint someone to run that state?

As an American, I have the right to vote for my public officials, both locally, state wide and on some national level, and if it goes the way I want, great, if not I have the right to voice my opinion. The basic fact is I have rights. One of those right is being taken away, what is next? Maybe they'll take my guns or my freedom of speech? Whatever the outcome of the election it is supposed to be by the people, not the Governor.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 12:43 PM   #11
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Where are the checks and balances? So could Obama pass a ruling that if he sees a state to be in financial despair, then he too could appoint someone to run that state?

As an American, I have the right to vote for my public officials, both locally, state wide and on some national level, and if it goes the way I want, great, if not I have the right to voice my opinion. The basic fact is I have rights. One of those right is being taken away, what is next? Maybe they'll take my guns or my freedom of speech? Whatever the outcome of the election it is supposed to be by the people, not the Governor.
This is true. However, in my opinion, the local municipality that runs to the state asking for $$ because they couldn't manage their budget properly is seceding these rights.

Don't want to have an "emergency financial manager" put in place? Don't fukc up the budget in the first place (aka, unions asking for way to much when the tax base can't support it), or when it does occur, don't go to the state asking for assistance To me, it seems no different from a company selling stock...the majority stake holders (aka, whoever buys the most stock) gets to call the shots...no different here as the state is the majority stake holder once they've stepped in.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 12:50 PM   #12
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Those are great points, I think people should work hard! I also agree with the second one too. My sister in-law is a public school teacher and says that parents need to be more involved in their kids academics then they are, and until that changes it is a uphill battle. I think she sometimes feels like an over educated daycare worker?
<------ Guy is a School Bus driver and I can relate to your Sister in Law. There is a balance though. You have parents that don't care and then parents that want to control everything. Unfortunately, the only people they (school administrators) have real control of should be the teachers. They don't though because of the teacher unions.

Teachers are amazing people, mostly. They do an incredible job and don't get paid much for it. BUT, they also know that when they go to school for it. You don't become a teacher (or any Public school Employee) for the big bucks, you do it because you want to better the future of our country.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 12:54 PM   #13
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Don't want to have an "emergency financial manager" put in place? Don't fukc up the budget in the first place (aka, unions asking for way to much when the tax base can't support it), or when it does occur, don't go to the state asking for assistance
If they had a choice to be able to balance the budget, they would. Most districts don't have that ability. I just don't get how people don't understand that. Go to a couple school board meetings when they are reviewing the budget and see what I mean. Most districts are at the point of cutting major things like Transportation, custodial, ETC. Those things, while you may not think they are, are essential to the district staying open.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 03:28 PM   #14
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fascism is okay when your party is the one in charge.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 04:18 PM   #15
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<------ Guy is a School Bus driver and I can relate to your Sister in Law. There is a balance though. You have parents that don't care and then parents that want to control everything. Unfortunately, the only people they (school administrators) have real control of should be the teachers. They don't though because of the teacher unions.

Teachers are amazing people, mostly. They do an incredible job and don't get paid much for it. BUT, they also know that when they go to school for it. You don't become a teacher (or any Public school Employee) for the big bucks, you do it because you want to better the future of our country.
Teachers in MI are among (if not "the") best-paid teachers in the U.S. $100K+ is a given for a MI teacher who just bides their time for 10-15 years.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:01 PM   #16
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fascism is okay when your party is the one in charge.
Click your boots when you say that
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #17
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Teachers in MI are among (if not "the") best-paid teachers in the U.S. $100K+ is a given for a MI teacher who just bides their time for 10-15 years.
Really? When my mom retired in 01 or 02 she was making just over 50k a year. She bought a couple years to get her 30yrs. Most of her teaching was K-5 Special Ed with a Masters in Special Education.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:26 PM   #18
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Really? When my mom retired in 01 or 02 she was making just over 50k a year. She bought a couple years to get her 30yrs. Most of her teaching was K-5 Special Ed with a Masters in Special Education.
Big changes over the last 10 years.

Don't get me wrong - my mom is a Board of Ed retiree too.

A teacher who hangs around 15 years and gets a masters in education (don't get me started) is guaranteed $100K+ today.

I'm for paying a good teacher $100-$150K easy - as long a we can fire inadequate teachers (i,e. no seniority, no MEA, no tenure).
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:35 PM   #19
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Big changes over the last 10 years.

Don't get me wrong - my mom is a Board of Ed retiree too.

A teacher who hangs around 15 years and gets a masters in education (don't get me started) is guaranteed $100K+ today.

I'm for paying a good teacher $100-$150K easy - as long a we can fire inadequate teachers (i,e. no seniority, no MEA, no tenure).
Wow, things have definitely changed! I know my sister just had an interview/whatever it is for her tenure. I hope she gets it because she doesn't make squat right now with her Masters in Special Ed.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:41 PM   #20
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