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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #1
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Default Project PJ (Plastic Jeep)

Little bit of a back story:
Couple years ago the trend caught on of bolting "body armor" on. This 1/8 thick steel would weigh down the jeep but was virtually rust proof. So the idea came into my head of making a jeep tub (unibody) out of 1/8 steel. It would last for 40+ years in Michigan's salt drenched roads. It would be able to take a tree rubbing and laugh and with a (very heavy) cage would be rather safe. Well everyone thought I was nuts and rightfully so. I was talking about using 5 ton axles. A hydraulic axial motor (not giving up on this yet) and multiple transmissions.

The project was deemed project Goliath for its "get the heck out of the way" factor. I came up with some "creative" concepts like having a hard top where you could remove all the glass in under 10 minutes (faster then unzipping the windows and putting down a soft top) I do plan on using a few of them on this.

I still wanted to build a jeep from the frame up. But did not want to have the thing rust out in 10 years either. I wanted to use it for a daily driver once finished and did not want to worry about body damage. I also wanted to make a Full cage not just to protect a roll over but to protect from a car side impact. A stock cj tub has no side protection except the axles. They will hit the axles and then the frame. The seat overhangs the frame by around 15 inches. This gives you NO protection at all in a side impact.

So I considered a repi tub. The thing is the steel tub would rust out. So I considered aluminum and even stainless. These are great but the sheer cost on top of the vulnerability to say dents was still there. Then there is fiberglass. This stuff id great but the more I thought about the tub the more I thought about the gas tank. I really did not like the idea of where the gas tank was and decided I could build a 30 gallon tank on top of the frame. This moves the tank out of the way of any damage but requires moving the rear floor higher. This led to me geting the idea of building a tub. A simple question entered my mind. What wont rust, will not crack, and I wont freak out if a soccer mom bashes her door into me in a parking lot.

What I came up with was using HDPE plastic. The stuff has been used for years for containers and such. When is the last time you seen a medal 55 gallon barrel? There all HDPE plastic. You can hit these things with a hammer and you might leave a scratch. Those road barrels get hit tossed a couple feet and then are stood up ready for the next idiot on a cell phone. Further more they do not require painting. The sheeting has 100 % UV protection. And the best part is that the sheeting is relativity low cost. Not only does this make for good Body panels but the non uv protected UHDPE(used in food grade and conveyor belts) has a waxy(oily) surface that sheds water mud and dirt. This would make a great light weight skid plate that would last for 5+ years before it lost it effective waxiness







Now that you all have deemed me officially nuts lets get this thing caught up so this looks like a actual build thread.


Basically here is where I started. A 1969 cj-5 with a good frame.


Wanted to see if the engine was seized so out with the old starter and battery.


New shiny battery installed


Found a nest while replacing the starter



Shiny new starter installed


Bought a 225 the next day(no pictures sorry)

Putting it up for winter(note the yj top)


Bought a t-18 for it







Picked up a Myers top and doors to replace the yj top





Picked up some fj-62 axles





Taking measurements





more measurements





lots of measurements













































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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:44 PM   #2
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Building the frame in max





worked on the frame some more and here is where I am now.

Frame finished. Have the shackles (OME) and bushings finished. The springs are next.





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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #3
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Thats a lot of measurements.

badass idea though.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 08:20 PM   #4
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Sounds great, can't wait to see more
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Old March 13th, 2011, 09:10 PM   #5
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Thats a lot of measurements.

badass idea though.
x2
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Old May 1st, 2011, 08:38 PM   #6
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OK here is my final tank design before I begin Routing all the fuel lines and starting the tube frame(body skeleton). I have been learning the proper way to bend tubes at specified angles in max and it has slowed me down a bit.


The tank uses plates in the lower portion(welded on 3 sides) that extend leaving a 1" gap at the end.
These plates are staggered so that if the tank has 1/4 of fuel or so it can still run on its side.

If the jeep is on its nose I would only need a minimum of fuel in the lowest chamber to keep it running.

If the jeep was laying on its rear I would need the lower 2 chambers of fuel.

If it was on laying on the drivers side I would only need the lower 2 chambers of fuel.

If it was on the passenger side I would only need the lower 3 chambers
side

rear


There are baffles in the upper portion that simply strengthen the tank and prevent sloshing.



Here is what it would look like in the frame


Because the plates will not allow flow between them I could not have a float that ran up between them. The solution was simple I plan on making these(or buying if I can find some that are threaded at the ends).



The design is simple the plastic ball(white). Pushes against a cylinder(green) that makes contact with a connection(yellow in the back) there is a spring(not pictured) that keeps the ball from pushing back unless there is fluid pushing on the ball.



Once the cylinder makes a connection a LED on the dash will lite up showing that level of fuel.

These would screw into the back(of the tank so they could be easily removed if they fail or if I need to flush out the tank).

I plan on using the FATS system.
FATS (Fuel Air Trap System) - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board


Having the tank being sealed and the vapor tube be at the highest point in the filler neck before going up and along the tube frame before coming down into this little canister.



It would sit inside the frame rails held in via a strap and have a fluid in line indicator(same design as in the tank) that would let me know if there was fluid in the line. At which point I would simply turn the little screw at the bottom and drain the Fats canister.



After the canister I have the vapor line going to a charcoal canister (located where the battery is now) and then the manifold.

Give feedback on this design please I am kind of one sided at this point.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 08:44 PM   #7
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hmmmmmmmmmm.... all this worry about fuel when you are flopped doesn't solve your engine from losing oil pressure. That has always been my problem when flopped.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 09:08 PM   #8
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Electronic pump that I would turn on before driving at angles I shouldn't.
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/howto/3282/index.html
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Old May 1st, 2011, 09:32 PM   #9
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http://www.aviaid.com/schems/scems.htm#11

replace the cam driven pump with a electronic pump. loose the filter/coolier. The inlets are on both sides of the pan(letting you run on either side). and the outlets via fitting is at the valve covers.

If the jeep is on say the passenger side a pump would suck oil from the passenger side of the pan and move it onto the drivers side head.
Another pump would suck oil from the drivers side pan and move it up to the passenger side head if on the drivers side.

I could use 2 fluid indicator(one on each side of the pan) (see above) that would turn the pump on when the oil sloshed against that side. I would loose some oil pressure but the engine would stay lubricated until I righted the jeep.



As for skying in and nose diving well those are pucker moments that I don't expect to see much of.
But as both indicators would be at the back of the pan (to lessen the chance of being damaged) both pumps would come on when climbing a steep hill and I would simply need to coast down steep grades.

Not a perfect solution but it is what i am going to try. Worst case I'm out a pan the cost of some pumps tubing and valve covers.
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Old May 1st, 2011, 10:25 PM   #10
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 06:08 AM   #11
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The only problem with all that is the oil doesn't drain back down the oil galleys as designed. It won't keep you from eventually hydro locking.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 07:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
The only problem with all that is the oil doesn't drain back down the oil galleys as designed. It won't keep you from eventually hydro locking.
Maybe he'll have another electric pump in each valve cover....
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 07:43 AM   #13
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Sounds super simple. For the record I have never lost oil pressue in my stock 6cyl and have never been starved for fuel on any climb or descent. I have been on some steep stuff (like sitting on my bumper/tailgate) for a long time too. I think your too worried about stuff.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 08:40 PM   #14
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Yea the fuel tank design is more about preventing sloshing then anything. I wanted a tank that I did not have to take out or worry about damaging or removing when the sending unit or pump went out. . It should hold around 28 gals but only be a few inches under the frame. With the (raised) floor being almost on top of the tank I wanted it rather stout but did not want to waste any space with a sending unit/vents on top. The plates being welded on 3 sides mean if I do manage to back into something it should not cause to much damage.

Oiling at angles has never really been a concern(as I have not gotten into the hardcore wheeling yet and this will not be a trailer queen) . Oiling concerns are very low on my list at this point in this build I am looking at 4 years(the schedule) before I will need to worry about oiling issues. I am designing this tank with the mindset that I don't want to have and go back later and redesign it.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 09:38 PM   #15
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Computer screens are cool. What have you built?
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 09:44 PM   #16
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Just be wary of spening too much effort on certain things, like the tank. I love doing my own fab work, and I'm an automotive engineer, with 15 years in the industry, so lord knows I enjoy it. But you are looking at years of work when you design every piece like that.

The key to successful design is having everything work in concert. Evrey piece should be designed to the same level.

The fuel system you have design, while interesting, is complete overkill, as are the oil pump mods, for what you are talking about doing. And do you really want to spend a month or two just doing a fuel system? What is the benefit for you over a standard tank with 3 walbro snowmobile pickups in it?

Best way to start a whole vehicle build, in my opinion is to ask these questions:

1) What engine are you using
2) What tires are you using
3) What are you building it to do
4) What are the signature elements that you want to emphasize?

Then, when you answer these, and are designing the build, then you look at each item and think how its individual design fits into the overall goal. Its a rediculous amount of work to go ground up, and its the type of thing that burns people out a year or two into a build when you want a nice Jeep and instead you're building a fuel tank for the 7th week in a row...

So, looks like you have most of this:

1) Buick V6 (carbed still?)
2) Guessing 33-37s based on the FJ60 axles.
3) Multipurpose trail vehicle, not really designed to do hardcore stuff.
4) PLastic body

So, with a carb'd 40 yr old V6, old school drivetrain, no plan to really do anything crazy, what is the benefit of a gonzo fuel tank, other than you think its interesting?

I have to agree with the other guys, when I've flipped my trucks and Jeeps, its oil pressure thats been an issue before fuel. Unless you are fuel injecting the motor, its going to die anyway, and V-engines risk oil hydrolocking much more than Inlines.


Now, if your aim is to be able to drive long distances, then, ok, maybe a 30 gallon tank has merit. But then, well, its an early CJ5, and they aren't exactly fun to drive for 450 miles straight. Why not just run an intermediate CJ5 tank between the rails? You're making the frame or just refurbishing? Could always widen the frame rails out to later CJ5 width, it'll be nicer for a daily driver that way, ride wise. Thats what I'm going to do on my 1969 CJ6. I left my 75 narrow and they do body roll a lot.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 09:46 PM   #17
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If you big thing is having the plastic body, maybe think on how to do that first. HDPE isnt great structurally, so think how to get the ridigity/structure do it without it being 3/4" thick, and being able to take the heat of the engine and exhaust.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 07:53 PM   #18
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The type of wheeling I like to do is in the snow and in the deep woods. I don't try to but I do rub trees slide on snow banks and end up finding things along the way. Most of the time this will be on the streets though.


The body is 1/8" hdpe laid over a 1 3/4 tube frame having another 1/8" hdpe or uhmhdpe depending on its location around that with sound deadening material to prevent air leakage. The main focus is build a very tough cage then to enclose that cage as much as possible to prevent rust that will come from trail abuse as well as the elements.

The heat factor is one of the first things I tackled and is not a issue anymore. The hood is designed so most of the heat will go out towards the windshield. I plan on wrapping the exhaust pipe and running heat shields around it. The hdpe can withstand a little over 200 degrees, still I will have heat shields protecting the one area(the floor between the transmission and the drivers side frame rail) that is vulnerable.

The tube frame is the bodies skeleton with the hdpe laying on it as skin. The best comparison I can make is a buggy with aluminum sheeting on top of the cage. The jeep will use a old man emu suspension and yj springs leaving it low with large wheel opens to keep the tires clean and allow for flex. Most of the outer panels will be symmetrical so I can flip them when they become severely scratched. If they do need to be replaced or I simply decide to change color I could replace the entire exterior body pannels with new ones for less then $600 and about 4 hours of time.

I did not want to use a later cj tank because I need the area behind the my tank for a recovery winch that lends itself to a custom tank. My tank is also raised giving me a departure angle the same as if I had the under seat tank. It is tucked forward and inside the frame rails for safety in case of a rear impact. Much of this jeeps design is based around someone slamming into me from the rear or a side impact. As for the size of the tank (28 gals or so) I have had big blocks before where I had to stop dang near every morning to put fuel in it simply gets annoying. This is not a big block but the ideal still stands that a bigger tank is usually better.


I am planning for the future with this tank. I do not need the baffles in it now but who knows I may go with fuel injection down the line. All I would have to do is mount a in line fuel pump to this tank and go. Same thing with the tires 33 has always been a good street/trail tire size for me. But, if later on I decide to add some beef to this the wheel openings will accommodate 38's without any additional lift. I don't want to have to go back and redesign this thing later.


Yea the oil pressure is something I have been thinking more about. I do not see why I could not mount a pump that fed off of a side of the oil pan(turned on via fluid level indicator when the level raised due to the jeep tipping). You would need some kind of divert-er switch or have to use 3 or 4 pumps having the appropriate one turn on when the jeep tipped to make it work. The pump would feed into a remote oil filter base, the oil filter, and then into the oil passage ways. The electric pump would bypass the oil pump and pickup that would be sucking air and pushing it into the filter along with the oil from the electric pump. I have no idea what this would do to oil pressure . The timing chain would run dry during steep climbs but the rest of the engine would be lubricated through all the passage ways and I think the splash effect would carry enough to lubricate the front banks.

I will let one of you hard core guys figure the oil thing out then copy your design later on if I need it.

As for progress yea it is slow. I am saving up to buy a house outright right now and my work has been tossing me these offers that I would be just ludicrous to turn down. I am ahead of schedule on the house thing and should be able to approach banks in about 2 years to see what they have collecting dust. I am a OTR driver and I am working 7 days a week right now. The slow season is in the winter and the jeep being out at the folks house means that I need to work outside. I have not been home since Christmas and don't plan on being home till around thanksgiving this year if these contracts keep coming in.

The main focus of the jeep is having something that I could wheel without worrying about body damage. I want something I can still have in 10 years that is not totally rusted out. I want something that I can survive both a hail storm and removing a bit of bark off of a tree with nothing more then light scratches. I wanted something that gives me the strength and security of a hardtop without needing to have a crazy winch and pully system or buddy come over every time I wanted to take it off. Most of all I wanted something that would look and be different then all the cookie cutter paint by numbers modified jeeps you see.
I could get most of the features you will see later on by buying someones else's jeep but a lot of the features I cant get buy buying someone elses jeep. The fenders on this for instance are going to be very different then what most people have seen. It is one of the main features of this jeep it will surprise people as it will be unexpected more then anything.

I am dumping a lot of money into this build (mostly in accessories and tools) and want it do be everything I want it to be, do, and last for a long time.
It something I have wanted to do for years and although it is going slow at this point due to work it is crawling ahead.

Right now I am working the finishing designs of the cage (still on paper before I move it into max) it is quite in depth but I am happy with how it is turning out. I am looking at bending styles, tips, techniques, and benders in general. I have chosen to go with a 4" pro tools die using a air/hydro bender.

I am using max cause it will let me get a feel for what the jeep will look like. I have already made many changes and have many to come. It is simply easier to change something the computer then it is to do after I have put hours of fabrication into it(ie the 2" thick"winter door" design that has changed over 100 times now leaving me quite proud of the final product). Max uses a lot of physics so I can check things like the suspension dampening system, the removable glass, and how the locking mechanism will work(the locks are not on the doors so I can easily switch doors ie winter door, security door, lexan door etc). I can also get a feel for what different colors, seats, dash designs etc will feel like changing them if they feel wrong. More then anything using Max is giving me something to do on this project and keeping me moving towards finishing it.
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Old May 14th, 2011, 08:36 PM   #19
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I am out-boarding the spring mounts and keeping the SUA setup. I am using a old man emu suspension designed to work with the fj axles(longer springs for better ride/flex). That and the adjustable dampening system I have designed will give a fairy nice ride with a huge amount of flexibility . As for body roll I never had a issue with body roll in any vehicle with less then 4" of lift. The dampening system will also eliminate a good amount of body roll to a degree.
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Old August 19th, 2011, 01:54 PM   #20
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So a lot of the design has changed as I refine this. Gas was dropped in favor of propane solving a lot of issues. Finding few parts for the 225 dauntless I dropped it in favor of a 383. The t-18 and the Dana 18 are going to be sent off to Herm.

The springs were dropped for a beefy ride tech shock wave air tri link setup that am quite proud of. It gives great flex, ride, and control while giving leveling ability. I had a air ride dampening system that would work with the springs to improve the ride but did not help the flex. So, I played around with linkage setups and have decides to copy a long arm 2 link with a pinion locating bar design. I will use a beefy "dropping" track bar design and a axle located steering box design that I have planned on using for years.

The downside of the suspension is the $7k cost (Anyone who has ever had a air ride rig knows why I want it so bad). But, because the bags are tucked up into the body (for protection) pushing down on the linkage instead of the axle it causes a double edged sword. It will provide a great ride and great flex while keeping the bags completely out of sight and giving a double take as there will not be any springs and such shown . But the frame needs to be further fish plated and reinforced(doing this anyway) and I will not be able to tow anything for risk of bending the frame. The cage to body will help strengthen the frame for recovery but I will consider towing for other rigs.

I am further progressing on the cage design.

For a while I have been working on the cage focusing on the side and rear dimensions making sure everything is accurate(excuse the grill it is just a reference for now). Found a big fail though when I tried to fit the spare tire inside. The height was off by 18 inches I fixed the height but now the upright angles are off.

Spare will not fit like that with the propane setup I don't know where it will end up at this point.


Also the upright center pillars angle seemed wrong so I used a picture off goggle as a comparison and found another huge fail. The bottom is in the correct position the top will need to be moved back to where the cross member comes up. This will change the cage greatly.



Also I have slightly changed the top from a 1/8" laying on to 3/8" tongue and groove design. This provides a more secure, water proof, and sound deadening design all around while adding little weight. It also gives a cleaner look with no exterior fasteners exposed. The top rear panel (it is a 2 piece roof)will slide out the front(once the main windshield bar and the front roof section is removed) so the outer cage(black) will drop down into the inner cage(green) having the inner weaving x bracing dropping under the inner frame and onto the uprights in spots.



Coming together little at a time I am going with the 4 20 gal propane tanks in the back and they will fit without question.


I am trying to fit the tire and such inside if at all possible but I think the high back seats may hit the tire. For now I will focus on fixing the cage dimensions and toss the tire into the later pile.

The dual (1.75") cage may seem a bit excessive but the outer cage is more of a body then a cage as you will see later once I fix this huge fail in the cage design. The cage has removable bars on the upper windshield(holding the windshield "sliding up" and roof "sliding forward"), the rear outer quarter uprights(holding in the side glass "sliding out the rear"), the bottom of the doors and tailgate(holding in the glass and side door panels "sliding down"). The point of the dual cage is to have the security of a hardtop with the convertibility of a soft top. The goal is to design it so that I can remove all the glass, the doors, and roof sections under 20 minutes and place them in the back of the jeep.
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