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Old March 12th, 2011, 08:18 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Trailrig View Post
no its the countries obligation to guarantee a opportunity for people to get an education, and taking away pell grants and headstart programs are going the other direction.

So by opportunity you really mean pay their way.

if america has people like you running the show there wont "be any other place to go"

As many have stated before, there are plenty of jobs and ways to get an education(if you really want one).

not everybody can be a big or small buisness owner.

Correct. Maybe those people should get a job.

no companies are not obligated to give any "profits" to the employess, but I hope there is a moral obligation to that, considering the employees are the one making them rich.

Your paycheck is profit sharing. If you want more $$ work harder.

honest paycheck? gimme a break, tell that to congress who cant add (considering the budget crisis we are in now)...or some ceo's obscene paycheck and stock options.

I will agree that our gov is over paid. As for a CEO, why shouldn't they make lots of money if their company is profitable? If you think the CEO of Burger King makes too much money then dont eat at Burger King.

I got it! if I work hard I'll be rich! then I wont worry about it anymore.


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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
Not everyone can afford college, work full time, pay housing, bills, raise kids etc... In a perfect world we could all live at home with mommie and daddie with their insurance coverage and a few grants until we emerged from the basement with a Masters degree. Not that a degree is any guarantee of a good career worthy job.

You are correct. That is not the governments fault. Your life situation is YOUR responsibility.

Ya, steady employment can be a pain in the ass, having to get up every day, etc... Everybody I know wants a job that they don't know will be there tomorrow or to jump from minimum wage job to minimum wage job

You need to meet better people.

Right, because it's way cheaper to let them all be on welfare for life than to have cooperative educational job training programs tied to a welfare expiration timeline? This goes toward the first two responses above also.

So you are saying either the government trains you, and pays your way, or the only other option is welfare? Interesting.

The $8-10 a hour place will be out of business because a town full of $7 a hour people can't afford to buy goods there. And why should he pay $8-10 an hour when the state has busted the unions and the overall prevailing wage for the area is $7 a hour? Houses, cars, toys, etc = taxes that provide money to the local & state governments that in turn save us money in reduced millages for schools, puclic safety, etc...

If a prevailing wage is $7 then the guy making $7.5 is doing well for that area.
Unions have been around in Detroit for many years. Do you plan on living in Detroit any time soon?


In the example I gave they are extorting a skilled workforce based on the socio economic job climate in the area. This is the reason unions were started.

The socio economic job climate is changing. People need to adapt or business will leave altogether. What is worse in your mind? A world with low paying companies or a world with no paying companies?


They are not getting fair pay, but they have no where else to go.

If their only other option is no pay then they are doing better than no pay I would say.

Sack up and start a business with what? The $7.40 a hour he's been living on or the money he was going to use for college?

With whatever he has. I did it with next to nothing. It isnt a huge business but it is enough that I am now back in school. Nobody said start the next 50,000 employee company. MAybe find something cheap to start and work your way up.


We don't need a state full of jobs that don't contribute to a successful economy. With jobs like that why would people strive to get out of a welfare system that gives them more?

I agree, but it is NOT the governments job to set you on your path. OPPORTUTNITY does NOT equal coddle.

At least to me, your views are way too simplistic and show a lack of understanding as to the true economic and social climate that exists in most of the state.
I am glad you have an opinion. How is that working out for you?

Here is a simple equation for you.

Money in must be equal to or greater than money out.
We can NOT continue to spend money we dont have. That is why we are in this mess. More government spending wont solve the problems. Cutting spending and raising revenue will.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 08:31 AM   #42
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AJ, seriously, don't come around when the grownups are talking.
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Or in other words...

Shut your whore mouth when the men are talking
What's the old saying? It's better to be thought an AJ Hall, than to open your mouth and prove you are an AJ Hall?

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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
We need more 'careers,' not more 'jobs.'

Building 10,000 new Chuck e Cheese, Starbucks, Subway, retail clothes stores, etc... with big tax breaks won't do shit. Creating a bunch of below poverty level $7.40 Hr 'jobs' do nothing for the economy. They can't buy houses or new cars and can barely pay for food or rent unless they get a room mate. The only person that makes out in this scenario is the big buisness.

I know of two companies locally that have experienced near exponential growth in a nitch market, yet don't pass on any more money or benefits to their employees or re-invest beyond maintainance. They do this because they know the job market is depressed to the point where all that is available locally are jobs like I mentioned in the above paragraph.

The moral of all of this? Just because big business makes more profit or growth doesn't mean they will share it with you.
I continue to like where your head is at.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 11:16 AM   #43
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You are correct. That is not the governments fault. Your life situation is YOUR responsibility.
Tell that to all the employees that lost their jobs to NAFTA & CAFTA slave labor wiping out their industry leaving them to loose everything and try supporting families on $7 a hour. Have you ever been 10-15-20 years into a career with a wife, kids in college, a house, bills, etc... and had it all taken away through no fault of your own? Unless they already have an education that will get them a new career with a living wage they will be stuck in poverty. So screw the guy that does the right thing in this situation and works two $7 jobs to care for his family? It doesn't take long for that guy and his family to realize that at some point never ending welfare assistance beats what he's doing. Enter job training / education with terminating welfare benefits.
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You need to meet better people.
So you're being sarcastic and saying people don't want to live like that, working low pay 'jobs'? Just a couple posts ago you said people want those jobs, pick a side of the fence.
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So you are saying either the government trains you, and pays your way, or the only other option is welfare? Interesting.
You apparently fail to read deep enough to get the point, so I will simplify the verbage. Whether you like it or not, welfare of some type will exist forever. Why not put a limit on it for the able bodied and make them attend educational training programs that leave them with no excuse not to get a career by the time it hits it's time limit.

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If a prevailing wage is $7 then the guy making $7.5 is doing well for that area.
Unions have been around in Detroit for many years. Do you plan on living in Detroit any time soon?
A sub poverty level job is a sub poverty level job. It still won't support the economy.

I do like the lakeshore drive homes, but we have them just as nice here in Frankenmuth, so I guess I don't need a longer drive to work. And just like the Detroit area we have high crime Saginaw just outside our door.

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The socio economic job climate is changing. People need to adapt or business will leave altogether. What is worse in your mind? A world with low paying companies or a world with no paying companies?
So you promote a society of just ultra rich and ultra poor? You're right, the middle class on down should all drop their standard of living to that of the third world countries that big buisness has moved it's operations to. Mud huts and Habitat for Humanity homes for everyone! After all, the U.S industry did lobby for NAFTA & CAFTA for our benefit to make products cheaper for their fired workers to buy, right?

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If their only other option is no pay then they are doing better than no pay I would say.
If their only other option is no pay they will take welfare instead. Enter job training / education with terminating welfare benefits.
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With whatever he has. I did it with next to nothing. It isnt a huge business but it is enough that I am now back in school. Nobody said start the next 50,000 employee company. MAybe find something cheap to start and work your way up.
You did it with next to nothing, not nothing. Did you have any help of family? Did you have a family, kids, a house payment, school loans, property taxes. etc... to pay while you're doing it? If you did, than you really beat the odds and good for you. I wish the 508,014 unemployed people in Michigan had your luck.

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I agree, but it is NOT the governments job to set you on your path. OPPORTUTNITY does NOT equal coddle.
Nope it's not the states job to set your path, but to stand by and watch someone flounder when they have worked hard before and would love to learn how to get off welfare is not helping either.

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I am glad you have an opinion. How is that working out for you?
Quite well actually.

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Here is a simple equation for you.

Money in must be equal to or greater than money out.
We can NOT continue to spend money we dont have. That is why we are in this mess. More government spending wont solve the problems. Cutting spending and raising revenue will.
Glad to see you got that point. It's just the 'how we get there without making 85% of society 'have nots' that seems to evade your logic.

I'm still of the opion that you are not worldly enough in social experience to understand what's going on a little further than just outside your door. But like your opion, that only matters those who agrees with it.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 12:31 PM   #44
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We have a fundamenal problem. I believe I have a right to my money, but so does every lazy SOB, poor person, or Democrat..
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Old March 12th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 84Scrambler View Post
We have a fundamenal problem. I believe I have a right to my money, but so does every lazy SOB, poor person, or Democrat..


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richer rich people, more piddly shit paying jobs
Didn't know job creation was a bad thing. . . go figure.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 06:42 PM   #46
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You did it with next to nothing, not nothing. Did you have any help of family? Did you have a family, kids, a house payment, school loans, property taxes. etc... to pay while you're doing it? If you did, than you really beat the odds and good for you. I wish the 508,014 unemployed people in Michigan had your luck.
.
Because all that shit is a necessity? How about pay that shit off while times are fat.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #47
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Because all that shit is a necessity? How about pay that shit off while times are fat.
no kidding. how about all those guys in MI that had a great job so they went out and bought huge houses, multiple vehicles, rv's and other toys and are now trying to sell that shit off because they cannot make ends meet? I bought a lot of guns from these guys for cheap while I still lived in MI. just because the sun is shining today doesnt mean it will tomorrow.

I have a paid for 10 yr old truck, the travel trailer I live in while working is 20 yrs old and my apartment in town is in the ghetto, but I have money in the bank and almost zero bills. I plan on quitting my job in mid july and going up to montana for the rest of the summer to goof off because I can manage my money and dont need to work all the time.
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Old March 12th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #48
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I had a response to all your crap but my kid deleted it so here is the short version.

I was in my field for 13 years when out of the blue I was let go. My boss not only didnt pay me my last 3 weeks pay, he also stuck me with 2 vehicles. 1 was in the shop getting a trans replaced. He was kind enough to cancel my medical insur 2 weeks prior to laying me off so the doctor apt I thought was covered under my insur cost me ~$1K. He left me with a $200 month storage bay bill and it was so full I couldnt empty it right away. Since I managed MI for him the van and storage bay were in my name so I got stuck with the bills. He screwed me out of over $6K.

I had a mortgage, 2 car payments, $10K in school loans, a wife in school (which we paid cash for every semester), 1 kid in college, an infant, and now no income. My wife was hired a few weeks after I was laid off but they had no hours for her. She picked up as many shifts as she could every week. She also worked a 2nd job where she picked up as many shifts as possible. Some weeks were less than 20 hours and some were over 60.

We lost our home of 10+ years, her new car, and some toys and some other stuff we decided we needed to sell for $$.

I am now in school to better myself. Can I afford the $35K+ the program costs? No. We took out more school loans so I can get trained in a field where I can expect starting pay of $15-$20/hour or more.

I didnt have help from my family starting my company. I had a mortgage, 2 car payments, $10K in school loans, a wife in school, 1 kid in college, and an infant, along with the other bills that come with life. Yes I beat the odds but it can be done.


Would I like to see a short term assistance program for those that are honestly trying to better themselves? Yes, but we cant keep spending money we dont have.

I am glad you dont think I am worldly enough. I am worldly enough to know the path we were on was NOT working. You can continue to go down that road if it works for you. Me, I made changes where needed so I can better myself and take care of my family. Best of luck to you and your family.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Trailrig View Post
no its the countries obligation to guarantee a opportunity for people to get an education, and taking away pell grants and headstart programs are going the other direction.
Those are both federally funded things. Head Start had a bunch of money dumped into it by the stimulus package, so they could expand for two years. Now that the money is gone, all the extra programs and positions are also gone.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:45 AM   #50
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1/3? 22% is more like 1/4.
It is now a third and in 2000 it was 22%
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Old March 13th, 2011, 07:50 AM   #51
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This is all a direct result if a failed stimulas plan that obama put in place.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 08:17 AM   #52
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This is all a direct result if a failed stimulas plan that obama put in place.
While I hated the stimulus plan, the state was headed in the direction before that. All the stimulus plan did was derail it for two years.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 08:31 AM   #53
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Rachel Maddow is a Dike or Dyke however its spelled. She spews crap and tries to point out shady things the GOP does. What she doesnt spew is how liberals completely screwed the debt in this country, and that MSNBC is going under and it really stands for MSLSD cuz they are on good shit
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Old March 13th, 2011, 08:42 AM   #54
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I had a response to all your crap but my kid deleted it so here is the short version............... ............. Yes I beat the odds but it can be done.
I am sincerely happy for you that things are working out and that you at least acknowledge it is against the odds for many people to crawl out of that hole.

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Would I like to see a short term assistance program for those that are honestly trying to better themselves? Yes, but we cant keep spending money we dont have.
I agree, don't spend more. It's not money we don't have, it's money we're wasting on welfare. You only get a welfare check as long as you're attending an educational class and pass a drug test. When the class is done you have one last month of welfare to get a job, then it's all up to you afterward.

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I am glad you dont think I am worldly enough. I am worldly enough to know the path we were on was NOT working. You can continue to go down that road if it works for you. Me, I made changes where needed so I can better myself and take care of my family. Best of luck to you and your family.
I agree with you 100%, the path we're on is not working. People like you and I that paid attention in school / life will find (or have found) a way out of it, we just need to force the rest of the able bodied people off welfare with something that gives them no excuse not to survive somewhere, somehow.

After 15 years of working in almost every low to no income housing program in Saginaw County (a community project) I saw a common element. I saw that from the day of birth, many people there are tought by their families; "Do not pay attention in school, drop out as soon as you can, and the world will be handed to you."

I think we really do want to get to the same destination, it's just the path where we differ in opinions. Ultimately, I believe, if we are going to have a 'radical' change to save tax dollars, the government needs start by going after those that don't contribute before those that do.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 08:56 AM   #55
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Interesting takes on things here. I'll throw my thoughts out there.

It isn't government's job to provide opportunities. The deal offered everyone in the U.S. is this: YOU have the opportunity to make something of yourself. It will require you to make choices and sacrifices; there are no guarantees and life isn't fair. There will be good people who never get the big break and bad people find their way paved with gold. It's imperfect and flawed, but it's the best system out there to date.

Unions - good or bad? I don't think good or bad is the question - it's more an issue of outdated. There was a time when employers held all the cards. Regulation in the form of safety and labor laws were virtually non-existent. Labor unions (as opposed to trade unions) emerged to fill that need.

However, in the face of OSHA, EEO, FLSA, FMLA, and a host of other laws, there's little need for assistance in the areas of workplace safety or exploitation. At the same time, labor unions have ironically become big businesses themselves - businesses with layers and layers of extraordinarily well-paid executives that have never worked in a plant or on a site in their lives. And, free from the expensive challenges of developing and marketing products, they're free to devote an amazing amount of their resources toward developing political influence. It could be said that the core process of many labor unions is participating as lobbyists and financial backers of the political process, with the whole collective bargaining thing coming second. For example, look at the SEIU who outsourced much of their central office work (performed by non-union workers) offshore to save money.

To maintain credibility in today's workplace, where they've become largely superfluous, unions have moved closer to their socialist roots and engage in more overt forms of class warfare, seeking to "share the wealth" - ironically without offering to share in the downside...

While trade unions have fallen prey to most of the maladies of the labor unions, they still have the value-added role of developing future workforces through apprenticeship programs.

I'm an unapologetic conservative - but not always a Republican.

Executive compensation has gotten out-of-line, which is the fault of lax board oversight. It's going to be hard to get that genie back into the bottle - but needs to happen.

We also need to start being a lot more interested in "number one", which is the U.S. I feel little need to keep underwriting the cost of Japan and Korea's national defense, so they can devote more resources to boosting their domestic industry's efforts to destroy our businesses.

And we need to toss this whole concept of "free trade", since it's far too often one-sided. Our markets are virtually wide-open to everyone, while our products are blocked from an amazing number of markets. Whatever barriers exist to our products in someone's home market need to be duplicated for theirs in ours (this means you Korea, Japan, China, etc...). No Cruzes allowed in Korea? No Hyundais in the U.S.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 09:35 AM   #56
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There are a ton of good comments on both sides of the fence. But, I think Duffman summed up my thoughts pretty good.
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Old March 13th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
I am sincerely happy for you that things are working out and that you at least acknowledge it is against the odds for many people to crawl out of that hole.
I know I am very lucky. I see a lot of people that could be doing more to better themselves but are content sitting on their butts and complaining life is too tough. I admit I am a bit jaded.


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I agree, don't spend more. It's not money we don't have, it's money we're wasting on welfare. You only get a welfare check as long as you're attending an educational class and pass a drug test. When the class is done you have one last month of welfare to get a job, then it's all up to you afterward.
That sounds good, but how many people will take advantage of it? What to do with the people that continue to do nothing? I wish it was as easy as saying he is X amount now go get trained. Society is getting lazier and lazier. I am fearful that too many people would not better themselves and we would be no further ahead and stuck with anouther government program that is a fiscal black hole.


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I agree with you 100%, the path we're on is not working. People like you and I that paid attention in school / life will find (or have found) a way out of it, we just need to force the rest of the able bodied people off welfare with something that gives them no excuse not to survive somewhere, somehow.
Personally I like this example better than letting the government trying to help out. A community knows their own people better than the federal gov. We all know how much waste there is when the gov has their hand in a project. I see 2 problems though.
1. How do you motivate people that just want a handout?
2. Where do we get the $$ to help our neighbors?


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Originally Posted by Renegade II View Post
After 15 years of working in almost every low to no income housing program in Saginaw County (a community project) I saw a common element. I saw that from the day of birth, many people there are tought by their families; "Do not pay attention in school, drop out as soon as you can, and the world will be handed to you."
Sadly you are correct. The more we see these attitudes the more we will need to "find" income to support or motivate these people. Since printing money is not possible we have to do something to bring money in. Do I like it all? No. Do I think it is best for us to make us stronger? I sure hope it is. I am not qualified to run the state so I am hoping that Snyder knows better than I do.


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I think we really do want to get to the same destination, it's just the path where we differ in opinions. Ultimately, I believe, if we are going to have a 'radical' change to save tax dollars, the government needs start by going after those that don't contribute before those that do.
I agree.

Taxing a pension IS going after those that dont pay taxes. It is the same as paying taxes on a 401K when you strat drawing out of it.

Back to R. Maddow's comment of taxing poor people. Good. Why should everyone else pay taxes but not the ones sucking up every government program out there? They are taking in money why dont they put some back into the system?
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Old March 14th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
Interesting takes on things here. I'll throw my thoughts out there.

It isn't government's job to provide opportunities. The deal offered everyone in the U.S. is this: YOU have the opportunity to make something of yourself. It will require you to make choices and sacrifices; there are no guarantees and life isn't fair. There will be good people who never get the big break and bad people find their way paved with gold. It's imperfect and flawed, but it's the best system out there to date.

Unions - good or bad? I don't think good or bad is the question - it's more an issue of outdated. There was a time when employers held all the cards. Regulation in the form of safety and labor laws were virtually non-existent. Labor unions (as opposed to trade unions) emerged to fill that need.

However, in the face of OSHA, EEO, FLSA, FMLA, and a host of other laws, there's little need for assistance in the areas of workplace safety or exploitation. At the same time, labor unions have ironically become big businesses themselves - businesses with layers and layers of extraordinarily well-paid executives that have never worked in a plant or on a site in their lives. And, free from the expensive challenges of developing and marketing products, they're free to devote an amazing amount of their resources toward developing political influence. It could be said that the core process of many labor unions is participating as lobbyists and financial backers of the political process, with the whole collective bargaining thing coming second. For example, look at the SEIU who outsourced much of their central office work (performed by non-union workers) offshore to save money.

To maintain credibility in today's workplace, where they've become largely superfluous, unions have moved closer to their socialist roots and engage in more overt forms of class warfare, seeking to "share the wealth" - ironically without offering to share in the downside...

While trade unions have fallen prey to most of the maladies of the labor unions, they still have the value-added role of developing future workforces through apprenticeship programs.

I'm an unapologetic conservative - but not always a Republican.

Executive compensation has gotten out-of-line, which is the fault of lax board oversight. It's going to be hard to get that genie back into the bottle - but needs to happen.

We also need to start being a lot more interested in "number one", which is the U.S. I feel little need to keep underwriting the cost of Japan and Korea's national defense, so they can devote more resources to boosting their domestic industry's efforts to destroy our businesses.

And we need to toss this whole concept of "free trade", since it's far too often one-sided. Our markets are virtually wide-open to everyone, while our products are blocked from an amazing number of markets. Whatever barriers exist to our products in someone's home market need to be duplicated for theirs in ours (this means you Korea, Japan, China, etc...). No Cruzes allowed in Korea? No Hyundais in the U.S.
Well said.

As soon as I saw it was a Rachel Madcow video I figured it was something getting picked apart. Amazing how many people are quick to jump on the "Recall Snyder" bandwagon and haven't even bothered reading the bill and are just going by what she said. Funny how the dems became so concerned about the $100 on a tax damn-near every other state has when BO was out spending their $1000s his stimulus will cost them.

I just wish he would knock our senate and HoR down to part-time like most other states. That might save a buck or 5.

If you are going to give out free haircuts, the best person to start is is with yourself so everyone can see how good the work is.
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