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Old March 4th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #81
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no...did your boss buy your car, house, cloths? after all it was his money that was given to you to buy it...While the public sectors wages may come from the taxpayer...what they do with that money comes from them, and that includes paying union dues
The pressure to join is pretty high. My sister in-law just went through this. She was strongly encouraged to vote Democratic as well, as she is constantly reminded what they "do for her". But again this isn't meant to argue your point. Only to validate the REAL problem is the politicians.

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in many case yes...many public sector unions are not considered "closed shops" it is up to the member to decide to join or not
Again with the pressure, they are looking for like minded individuals. Not ones who want to question, in the end the union has it's flaws like the government.

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Where did you get that from? this is another example of the grossly misinformed public...that shit went out the window along time ago...and they do not get automatic raises...many counties have a merit system (performance based system,) as well as strictly defined raises if they do qualify which if they do not perform they do not get the super high raise of 1-3%, when compared to the traditional raise of over 8% enjoyed by their private sector counterpart....checks your facts before spewing your trash...you are dead wrong on this. And who has a pension anymore…that shit stopped back in 1993
I have a Pension. I was hired in 2002. I know that's not what you are saying, but I would gladly trade it for a cash value in my 401k. I have 35 years before I can touch it. And that's if 35 years down the road some ASSHAT in government doesn't say, "You have a Pension? Well that's not fair since nobody else does. Why don't we tax that at 80% since you are the one who stands out from the crowd." Quite frankly I'd rather have $20bux under my pillow right now than a piece of shit worthless bullseye, I mean pension.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #82
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I have a Pension. I was hired in 2002. I know that's not what you are saying, but I would gladly trade it for a cash value in my 401k. I have 35 years before I can touch it. And that's if 35 years down the road some ASSHAT in government doesn't say, "You have a Pension? Well that's not fair since nobody else does. Why don't we tax that at 80% since you are the one who stands out from the crowd." Quite frankly I'd rather have $20bux under my pillow right now than a piece of shit worthless bullseye, I mean pension.
John Galt would predict this coming true but what do I know
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Old March 4th, 2011, 03:25 PM   #83
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I got the information from the 3 people I know who have wives that teach. The one who's wife teaches high school in Bloomfield for over 90k/year, and they both laugh at how little time she spends working...especially in the summer.

Then there's the guy who's wife teaches middle school in Melvindale school district...also making over 90k/year. With his middle management salary he likes to brag how they take a couple nice trips every year, and how he doesn't need to worry too much about contributing to his 401k. the taxpayers got him covered. Oh, and he checks the "no thanks" box at the annual benefit sign up. He doesn't need his own medical plan.

Then there's my friend who started his own business. He told me he can't believe his wife's medical plan is free. His employees don't get nearly the coverage he has for FREE. It would cost him $1,600/month. That's Traverse City Schools.

EVERY unionized public school teacher has a pension. Maybe the private sector pensions are a thing of the past, but they're still alive and well in public sector unions.

HOLY COW!! they make 90k a year and brag about how little they do? They pay nothing towards thier medical? Man I have to tell all the teachers I know they are getting screwed!!! As far as pensions go, yes teachers still have them...some local city employees still have them...county employees, forget about it!
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Old March 4th, 2011, 03:52 PM   #84
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HOLY COW!! they make 90k a year and brag about how little they do? They pay nothing towards thier medical? Man I have to tell all the teachers I know they are getting screwed!!! As far as pensions go, yes teachers still have them...some local city employees still have them...county employees, forget about it!
So you are suggesting he is lying? MI has over 300 teachers that gross in excess of 100k a year, and many, many more than that in the 80k+ range.

Again, overpaid, maybe not in your eyes. But how much does one person need to make for working 9-10 months of the year and 40 hrs a week when they are working? Personally I am ok with a teacher making that much if it can be afforded by the system and is justified by performance.

Shit they might be a miracle worker from the big D getting 90% graduation out of their classes and helping them earn scholarships, if so give it to them. If they are a PE teacher in BFE sitting on their asses watching kids play basketball 6 hours a day, then pushing paper for another 2...well then hello 25k. Again, pay them on performance and not just for showing up to work and doing the minimum to get by.

America has an attitude that I should get what you get, regardless of what you have done to get it. If we both teach for the same school system, for the same time, I get what you get, even though you work harder and get better results, UNION!

So in retaliation of this, you now will lower your standards and produce what I do so as not to put in extra and not get paid for it, hello UNION mentality.

Again, I am not attacking those in a union. Outsiders (the other 80%+ of us) see this and hear this daily. If we allow the cream to float to the top, all of our children will get better educations and we will not be a laughing stock in many parts of the world.

In the end those that went to school to teach and realize they are not up to it, will find employment elsewhere, McDonald's always needs a fry guy. Today that fry guy, is trying to teach your high schooler calc and chemistry.......and failing at it.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 04:03 PM   #85
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So you are suggesting he is lying? MI has over 300 teachers that gross in excess of 100k a year, and many, many more than that in the 80k+ range.

Again, overpaid, maybe not in your eyes. But how much does one person need to make for working 9-10 months of the year and 40 hrs a week when they are working? Personally I am ok with a teacher making that much if it can be afforded by the system and is justified by performance.

Shit they might be a miracle worker from the big D getting 90% graduation out of their classes and helping them earn scholarships, if so give it to them. If they are a PE teacher in BFE sitting on their asses watching kids play basketball 6 hours a day, then pushing paper for another 2...well then hello 25k. Again, pay them on performance and not just for showing up to work and doing the minimum to get by.

America has an attitude that I should get what you get, regardless of what you have done to get it. If we both teach for the same school system, for the same time, I get what you get, even though you work harder and get better results, UNION!

So in retaliation of this, you now will lower your standards and produce what I do so as not to put in extra and not get paid for it, hello UNION mentality.

Again, I am not attacking those in a union. Outsiders (the other 80%+ of us) see this and hear this daily. If we allow the cream to float to the top, all of our children will get better educations and we will not be a laughing stock in many parts of the world.

In the end those that went to school to teach and realize they are not up to it, will find employment elsewhere, McDonald's always needs a fry guy. Today that fry guy, is trying to teach your high schooler calc and chemistry.......and failing at it.

not by any means am i suggesting that he is lying...I know several teachers with 14+yrs on the job, I none of them make 90k...none of them work a straight 40hrs a week...they spend plenty of time at home grading, making plans, ect. Is it the union that let the slackers teachers slide buy? Or is it an administration willing to put up with the BS....Again all of the teachers I know, know at least one slug that doesn't belong amongst their ranks, however the vast majority are hard working and deserve every penny they get. Only in light of the poor economy is everyone bicthing about how they make too much...that is a result of the public wage becoming even or passing the private wage. In the days of the good economy nobody gave a damn that they were vastly UNDER paid...nobody. The teachers and unions didn't create this problem...it was union leaders, politicians and corrupt officials that did. Now the popular opinion is to vilify these workers and i don't think that is right. And again your politicians that said that PE is just as important as math…its part of the state mandated curriculum…so if the state says it’s just as important, shouldn’t they make the same wage? Should the sins of the father have to paid for by the son?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 04:29 PM   #86
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not by any means am i suggesting that he is lying...I know several teachers with 14+yrs on the job, I none of them make 90k...none of them work a straight 40hrs a week...they spend plenty of time at home grading, making plans, ect. Is it the union that let the slackers teachers slide buy? Or is it an administration willing to put up with the BS....Again all of the teachers I know, know at least one slug that doesn't belong amongst their ranks, however the vast majority are hard working and deserve every penny they get. Only in light of the poor economy is everyone bicthing about how they make too much...that is a result of the public wage becoming even or passing the private wage. In the days of the good economy nobody gave a damn that they were vastly UNDER paid...nobody. The teachers and unions didn't create this problem...it was union leaders, politicians and corrupt officials that did. Now the popular opinion is to vilify these workers and i don't think that is right. And again your politicians that said that PE is just as important as math…its part of the state mandated curriculum…so if the state says it’s just as important, shouldn’t they make the same wage? Should the sins of the father have to paid for by the son?
Well, in reality I understand they don't work a straight 40, I too, know many teachers, most are under 15 year and not making 90k. My point was that some of those teachers I know, should not be teachers, based on their attitude, appearance, performance, etc.

But they are protected, so the administration of the school district is to blame? Really??? If the administration fires a teacher what happens, does the union get involved? Do they raise hell on many levels? Do they make administrations gun shy of dealing with their problems? Can the school afford to have legal action brought on them by the union or the terminated teacher? Since the union in nearly all aspects is there to protect ALL indiscriminately the do protect the weak and under performing, by default.

So in the end, the administration is really in a position where their hands are tied....and before you are they are not, I will relent. Both hands are not be tied, but the elbows sure are.

And regardless if PE is required, so is recess, so do we pay the aides 50k as well. The teacher is paid the same not because the state said the class was required, but instead because the UNION bargained for the same deal for all! So the fry guy teaching PE that passed with a C avg gets paid the same as the guy with an A avg that teaches Chemistry, and not how their students perform.

And I was bitching about union teachers in the 90s so don't give me the johnny come lately speech. Teachers were overpaid then based on the fact they were not paid on performance. As a whole they were and are overpaid, solely because they are paid a wage that is negotiated in a contract and not one that is based on what they are doing today.....and their next wage increase will also be based on the contract and not what their performance is.

You said you are not a teacher (married to one, related to one?), and I guess you may not be a union member (although related or married to one). When you got your last wage increase was it based on your performance or was it "in the contract"?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 05:06 PM   #87
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Well, in reality I understand they don't work a straight 40, I too, know many teachers, most are under 15 year and not making 90k. My point was that some of those teachers I know, should not be teachers, based on their attitude, appearance, performance, etc.

But they are protected, so the administration of the school district is to blame? Really??? If the administration fires a teacher what happens, does the union get involved? Do they raise hell on many levels? Do they make administrations gun shy of dealing with their problems? Can the school afford to have legal action brought on them by the union or the terminated teacher? Since the union in nearly all aspects is there to protect ALL indiscriminately the do protect the weak and under performing, by default.

So in the end, the administration is really in a position where their hands are tied....and before you are they are not, I will relent. Both hands are not be tied, but the elbows sure are.

And regardless if PE is required, so is recess, so do we pay the aides 50k as well. The teacher is paid the same not because the state said the class was required, but instead because the UNION bargained for the same deal for all! So the fry guy teaching PE that passed with a C avg gets paid the same as the guy with an A avg that teaches Chemistry, and not how their students perform.

And I was bitching about union teachers in the 90s so don't give me the johnny come lately speech. Teachers were overpaid then based on the fact they were not paid on performance. As a whole they were and are overpaid, solely because they are paid a wage that is negotiated in a contract and not one that is based on what they are doing today.....and their next wage increase will also be based on the contract and not what their performance is.

You said you are not a teacher (married to one, related to one?), and I guess you may not be a union member (although related or married to one). When you got your last wage increase was it based on your performance or was it "in the contract"?

I wish I could find the data I’m looking for but right now I cannot…if you look at wages compared against people with similar education levels and various levels of education you will see the more education a person has the high wage they earn. So take someone with a bachelor degree just out of college and you will see the private sector employee is earning a higher wage than the teacher…if you look at master degreed again the private sector earns more than a teacher buy a much larger gap. And at the doctoral level the gap widens even more. You can’t lump all the teachers into one category because of a few bad apples(I remember this from a class in college)…I can’t lump all auto workers into the same category because the union protects their slugs. If that were the case nothing would ever be done. And I can’t compare a wage of a manufacturing worker who only requires a high school diploma or GED to a teacher, PE or not that requires a bachelor or higher. By no means am I going to suggest that a degreed person will be able to perform the job to which they are hired better than a non-degreed person doing the same job…However studies have shown that people with degrees will work harder than those that don’t. Just because somebody has a degree doesn’t make me assume they are smart…in fact the only thing it does is show me that they have the willingness to see something through.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #88
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A couple quick things. My wife is a non-union member who works for the schools. She has a medical co-pay. In the same school district, the union members do not pay medical co-pay. Imagine that.

My daughter is a teacher with a master's in special education. She spends a ton of extra hours at home and is quite often on the phone with my wife both before and after school discussing school issues.

It cracks me up about the wage discussions. I know for a fact that her starting wages were way below those of a mechanical engineer with the same amount of schooling, roughly $20K. So, if she were working 12 months out of the year instead of 10, it would still not be on par. I would like to know what are the qualifications of a teacher making $90K. I'm not saying they don't, but I don't think there are as many as some of the postings on here suggest.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #89
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A couple quick things. My wife is a non-union member who works for the schools. She has a medical co-pay. In the same school district, the union members do not pay medical co-pay. Imagine that.

My daughter is a teacher with a master's in special education. She spends a ton of extra hours at home and is quite often on the phone with my wife both before and after school discussing school issues.

It cracks me up about the wage discussions. I know for a fact that her starting wages were way below those of a mechanical engineer with the same amount of schooling, roughly $20K. So, if she were working 12 months out of the year instead of 10, it would still not be on par. I would like to know what are the qualifications of a teacher making $90K. I'm not saying they don't, but I don't think there are as many as some of the postings on here suggest.

back in the late 80's early 90's my mother quit being a teacher...she was a gym teacher, to take a job at the school as the second in charge of the maintenance department(office job not changing light bulbs)....why, because she made way more in the maintenance dept than she did as a teacher...her retirement and benefits stayed the same although now in a non-union position. She retired two years ago, and is collecting her pension that she rightfully earned. Growing up we always had a co-pay...and all the teachers I know now have always had a co-pay
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Old March 4th, 2011, 07:32 PM   #90
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Hancho, I have a new respect for you. It is easy for people to want public service employees to take pay cuts and concessions because they feel they make to much. That is until they truly need that firefighter, officer ect in an emergency, then it is a whole different story. Unfortunatly the cuts come from the lowest paid people rather than the upper management or at least an equal cut across the board.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #91
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Hancho, I have a new respect for you. It is easy for people to want public service employees to take pay cuts and concessions because they feel they make to much. That is until they truly need that firefighter, officer ect in an emergency, then it is a whole different story. Unfortunatly the cuts come from the lowest paid people rather than the upper management or at least an equal cut across the board.
that doesn't make much sense either...at 10% cut at $20,000 is alot harder to a family than a 10% cut at $100,000 earner...the the $100,000 guy is going to feel a sting by losing $10,000, but the $20,000 guy might slip under water losing $2,000 a yr if you catch what I'm saying
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Old March 4th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #92
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I would like to know what are the qualifications of a teacher making $90K.
- master's degree
- 10+ years senority

-specializations- special education certified, therapist, etc.

and the most important. . .

school districts with a large enough tax base/millages, both commercial and residential, to support the wages.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #93
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- master's degree
- 10+ years senority

-specializations- special education certified, therapist, etc.

and the most important. . .

school districts with a large enough tax base/millages, both commercial and residential, to support the wages.
And since I honestly don't know, how does that compare to a comparable mechanical engineer or other professions?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:01 PM   #94
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And since I honestly don't know, how does that compare to a comparable mechanical engineer or other professions?
~$43/hr would be equal to a senior engineer or principal engineer with equal education and seniority.

Edit with random internet link: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...tractor/Salary

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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:08 PM   #95
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And since I honestly don't know, how does that compare to a comparable mechanical engineer or other professions?
About the same depending on specialized field.

But we are comparing 2 different fields. Again there are many career choices and many require roughly the same schooling, but depending on field chosen, the wages will vary greatly.

A 4 year degree does not = pay, period. It is a starting point.

A 4 year degree could get you $20k or it could get you $50k to start.

in 8-10 years that same degree could get you $20k or $150k+ depending on what you do and how well you have performed in your career.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:11 PM   #96
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that doesn't make much sense either...at 10% cut at $20,000 is alot harder to a family than a 10% cut at $100,000 earner...the the $100,000 guy is going to feel a sting by losing $10,000, but the $20,000 guy might slip under water losing $2,000 a yr if you catch what I'm saying
I totally agree with you. I was just stating that usually what I have seen is the upper not taking any cuts. I know of a township whose board voted to give themselves a 3% increase in a hush hush manner only to make a big deal about "giving up" 3% a couple months later. Then shortly after that they cut the work force pay by 20% and said everybody has given up something.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #97
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I totally agree with you. I was just stating that usually what I have seen is the upper not taking any cuts. I know of a township whose board voted to give themselves a 3% increase in a hush hush manner only to make a big deal about "giving up" 3% a couple months later. Then shortly after that they cut the work force pay by 20% and said everybody has given up something.
Now this is complete BS, if indeed it happened. Time to vote some folks out!

And people need to attend these meetings and raise some hell.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:17 PM   #98
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Agree it is complete BS. But it did happen. People need to be more involved with their local government and keep an eye with what is going on.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #99
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EVERY unionized public school teacher has a pension. Maybe the private sector pensions are a thing of the past, but they're still alive and well in public sector unions.
For the school teachers-sure, but no other state employee in Michigan has been given a pension since fiscal year 1997.

New hires into the state are paying 20% towards their health insurance, the vested employees are getting moved into the same plan eventually. I can also count 3 times in the past 5 years where we gave our raises up.

I love it when people talk about how state employees are overpaid. I've amassed numerous broken bones, been drilled many times and have a boatload of aches and pains from all of it. All for the lovely base pay of $55k/year. I've spent almost a year combined with some sort of cast somewhere on my body.

When I hired in back in 96, nobody wanted to work for the state and nobody cared what was going on with us...because the economy was better. We hired in with pensions and fully paid benefits. Now that things are shitty, everybody wants our heads on the chopping block. After years of being invisible, now we're all pieces of shit. The media is telling people that, so that's what they think.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #100
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I heard it on fox news myself so it has to be true. All of us state, municipal, ect employees are overpaid . Oh and there is no inflation. BS
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