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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:54 PM   #61
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Excellent thread! I'm pretty much on board with Kickstand and Hunter9. Hancho also makes some good points and Woohaw is well............ whocares.

Yes, I think a K-4 teacher is just as much or moreso important than a High School teacher. The younger ages are much more of the formative years and that is when a child learns discipline, composure, confidence and self esteem. A bad teacher can destroy those features in a young child. By the time they reach high school, they will already have those features and a single bad teacher won't destroy them.

Some teachers are overpaid, some are not paid enough. I would love to see a merit system pay for teachers but before we do that, we need to get rid of all the old time assholes at the administration level.

Regarding CEO's making big dollars, I still believe they should. They are making huge decisions that impact many lives that go way beyond the specific work force. My experience has taught me that there are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks who say "shoulda woulda coulda" but those same people are not willing to put their neck out to make those decisions when offered. I'm especially partial to this in the private sector. A man who mortaged his house and risked all when his employees wanted to hide behind a company handbook deserves everything he can get.

Finally, you don't need a union to protect your wages and workplace. The work place laws we have do just fine. And, it's a free market. If you don't like it, go find a job somewhere else. If you can't find another job, maybe you should look in the mirror and explain to yourself that you don't have it so bad afterall.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:04 PM   #62
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too bad he's too stupid to get it and has no idea what it means
Isn't he the guy that built the Back To The Future car?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #63
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Isn't he the guy that built the Back To The Future car?
and just when you think the game is lost...Stan the pinch hitter comes and knocks one out of the park!!
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #64
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Excellent thread! I'm pretty much on board with Kickstand and Hunter9. Hancho also makes some good points and Woohaw is well............ whocares.

Yes, I think a K-4 teacher is just as much or moreso important than a High School teacher. The younger ages are much more of the formative years and that is when a child learns discipline, composure, confidence and self esteem. A bad teacher can destroy those features in a young child. By the time they reach high school, they will already have those features and a single bad teacher won't destroy them.

Some teachers are overpaid, some are not paid enough. I would love to see a merit system pay for teachers but before we do that, we need to get rid of all the old time assholes at the administration level.

Regarding CEO's making big dollars, I still believe they should. They are making huge decisions that impact many lives that go way beyond the specific work force. My experience has taught me that there are a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks who say "shoulda woulda coulda" but those same people are not willing to put their neck out to make those decisions when offered. I'm especially partial to this in the private sector. A man who mortaged his house and risked all when his employees wanted to hide behind a company handbook deserves everything he can get.

Finally, you don't need a union to protect your wages and workplace. The work place laws we have do just fine. And, it's a free market. If you don't like it, go find a job somewhere else. If you can't find another job, maybe you should look in the mirror and explain to yourself that you don't have it so bad afterall.

Some people say I’m smart…I’m not one of those people…and my example about CEO’s was to enforce my point who am I to say what anybody is worth. By using your example of how fundamental elementary teachers are is would not be far off to say that they are vastly underpaid considering the amount of help/damage they could do on a child’s future. Just as the amount of help/damage a CEO can do for a corporation.

As far as laws go…should somebody have to wait their turn in line in a already clogged legal system to prove that their employer was an asshat, that had no right to fire/discipline them when they did. Unions try and stop it before the have to go the legal route. The unions are paid by their members as the courts fall on the backs of the tax payers
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:34 PM   #65
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Agreed on teachers and CEO's

I have no care about a person saying they were fired unfairly. If your employer fires you, either you screwed up or he doesn't need you. It's supply and demand, simple as that.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:38 PM   #66
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The unions are paid by their members as the courts fall on the backs of the tax payers
If the union member is paid by the taxpayers, then aren't thier unions essentially paid by the taxpayers?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:50 PM   #67
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Agreed on teachers and CEO's

I have no care about a person saying they were fired unfairly. If your employer fires you, either you screwed up or he doesn't need you. It's supply and demand, simple as that.
In most cases YES, but (i am not a union supporter) but but but, people do get wrongly fired from time to time.

I don't think it's always a union's job to stop that from happening, but hancho makes good point about how a union can help to prevent it from needing to go into the court system.

Michigan however is an "at will" state, you can quit at will, and you can be let go at will, so other than rare circumstance it's kind of a "facts of life" situation.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:57 PM   #68
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In most cases YES, but (i am not a union supporter) but but but, people do get wrongly fired from time to time.

I don't think it's always a union's job to stop that from happening, but hancho makes good point about how a union can help to prevent it from needing to go into the court system.

Michigan however is an "at will" state, you can quit at will, and you can be let go at will, so other than rare circumstance it's kind of a "facts of life" situation.
And you still have a path to follow if you have a grievance, no union needed for that. EEOC will gladly hear your complaint.

In the end if you are terminated or laid off. It comes down to the employee not needing or wanting you. Whaaaaaaaaaaa. Go get another job and move on. The % of legit wrongful termination suits is low.

Of all the union employees that have lost their jobs, how many had it coming for good cause?? And yes, a company no longer needing your services or down sizing is good cause.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #69
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Chad, I know you were a victim of this but at the end of the day, your employer didn't feel they needed your services. Since it's their nickel and their responsibility to show profits, it's the way it is. Even if you were the perfect employee, there was "something" that required a change. Maybe it was as simple as an attempt to reduce overhead.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:03 PM   #70
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If the union member is paid by the taxpayers, then aren't thier unions essentially paid by the taxpayers?
no...did your boss buy your car, house, cloths? after all it was his money that was given to you to buy it...While the public sectors wages may come from the taxpayer...what they do with that money comes from them, and that includes paying union dues
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:22 PM   #71
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no...did your boss buy your car, house, cloths? after all it was his money that was given to you to buy it...While the public sectors wages may come from the taxpayer...what they do with that money comes from them, and that includes paying union dues
Oh, I see. So paying union dues, much like buying a car, is optional. They don't HAVE to pay.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #72
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Oh, I see. So paying union dues, much like buying a car, is optional. They don't HAVE to pay.

in many case yes...many public sector unions are not considered "closed shops" it is up to the member to decide to join or not
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:31 PM   #73
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in many case yes...many public sector unions are not considered "closed shops" it is up to the member to decide to join or not
If they decide not to join do they give up automatic raises without regard for performance, pensions way outside the norm for typical american workers, and top of the line health care at little to no cost to them or their families?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #74
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hey homo try teaching Calculus to a six year old...oh wait you can't because cognitively they are not ready yet…so 2+2 is just as hard for a six year old to grasp as Calculus is to a 15yr…you really are stupid you know that
Wrong. You or I or most adults with basic knowlege can teach a six year old to grasp basic math. While it might not seem basic to the 6 year old at that time it will with time. On the flip side there isn't a vast population that could go into a HS and teach a calc class and that is why they deserve a higher rate of pay because of what it takes to achieve the knowlege to teach the material. Same goes for a brain surgon compared to your family doctor or a master engine builder to the guy who puts on the tires.

You are worth what you know and the results of your work which is what this country was built upon and why it was great in the past. The past was when Americans understood their place and didn't think just cause they are alive that they should be paid equally.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:37 PM   #75
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And you still have a path to follow if you have a grievance, no union needed for that. EEOC will gladly hear your complaint.

In the end if you are terminated or laid off. It comes down to the employee not needing or wanting you. Whaaaaaaaaaaa. Go get another job and move on. The % of legit wrongful termination suits is low.

Of all the union employees that have lost their jobs, how many had it coming for good cause?? And yes, a company no longer needing your services or down sizing is good cause.
agreed
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Chad, I know you were a victim of this but at the end of the day, your employer didn't feel they needed your services. Since it's their nickel and their responsibility to show profits, it's the way it is. Even if you were the perfect employee, there was "something" that required a change. Maybe it was as simple as an attempt to reduce overhead.
No disagreement, they had their reasons, I don't know the full reason, and they didn't have to provide one, it was life.

I moved on, and in the end I survived, such is life.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #76
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If they decide not to join do they give up automatic raises without regard for performance, pensions way outside the norm for typical american workers, and top of the line health care at little to no cost to them or their families?
Where did you get that from? this is another example of the grossly misinformed public...that shit went out the window along time ago...and they do not get automatic raises...many counties have a merit system (performance based system,) as well as strictly defined raises if they do qualify which if they do not perform they do not get the super high raise of 1-3%, when compared to the traditional raise of over 8% enjoyed by their private sector counterpart....checks your facts before spewing your trash...you are dead wrong on this. And who has a pension anymore…that shit stopped back in 1993
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:41 PM   #77
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Where did you get that from? this is another example of the grossly misinformed public...that shit went out the window along time ago...and they do not get automatic raises...many counties have a merit system (performance based system,) as well as strictly defined raises if they do qualify which if they do not perform they do not get the super high raise of 1-3%, when compared to the traditional raise of over 8% enjoyed by their private sector counterpart....checks your facts before spewing your trash...you are dead wrong on this. And who has a pension anymore…that shit stopped back in 1993
Lets see your facts since you are dead right in your mind.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:46 PM   #78
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Wrong. You or I or most adults with basic knowlege can teach a six year old to grasp basic math. While it might not seem basic to the 6 year old at that time it will with time. On the flip side there isn't a vast population that could go into a HS and teach a calc class and that is why they deserve a higher rate of pay because of what it takes to achieve the knowlege to teach the material. Same goes for a brain surgon compared to your family doctor or a master engine builder to the guy who puts on the tires.

You are worth what you know and the results of your work which is what this country was built upon and why it was great in the past. The past was when Americans understood their place and didn't think just cause they are alive that they should be paid equally.
why..to me calc was easy..in fact so was chemistry...you make no sense, your arguments are made without though or research, but the real kicker was your misuse of a "Who is John Gault?" reference…that one made me laugh because it was then I realized you had no idea what you were talking about
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Old March 4th, 2011, 02:50 PM   #79
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why..to me calc was easy..in fact so was chemistry...you make no sense, your arguments are made without though or research, but the real kicker was your misuse of a "Who is John Gault?" reference…that one made me laugh because it was then I realized you had no idea what you were talking about
Actually I could as well so I guess we are just smarter then the vast majority but that vast majority of idiots in this country who are bitching about their wages more then likely could not and there for do not derserve the pay or understand why those individuals should recieve a higher rate especially since most have a masters degree in the subject.

I will not apologize for your lack of understanding so go on and berate and belittle everyone. Seems like you're really good at that and I'll go out on a limb and guess you're a cop.

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Old March 4th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #80
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Where did you get that from? this is another example of the grossly misinformed public...that shit went out the window along time ago...and they do not get automatic raises...many counties have a merit system (performance based system,) as well as strictly defined raises if they do qualify which if they do not perform they do not get the super high raise of 1-3%, when compared to the traditional raise of over 8% enjoyed by their private sector counterpart....checks your facts before spewing your trash...you are dead wrong on this. And who has a pension anymore…that shit stopped back in 1993
I got the information from the 3 people I know who have wives that teach. The one who's wife teaches high school in Bloomfield for over 90k/year, and they both laugh at how little time she spends working...especially in the summer.

Then there's the guy who's wife teaches middle school in Melvindale school district...also making over 90k/year. With his middle management salary he likes to brag how they take a couple nice trips every year, and how he doesn't need to worry too much about contributing to his 401k. the taxpayers got him covered. Oh, and he checks the "no thanks" box at the annual benefit sign up. He doesn't need his own medical plan.

Then there's my friend who started his own business. He told me he can't believe his wife's medical plan is free. His employees don't get nearly the coverage he has for FREE. It would cost him $1,600/month. That's Traverse City Schools.

EVERY unionized public school teacher has a pension. Maybe the private sector pensions are a thing of the past, but they're still alive and well in public sector unions.
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