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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:58 AM   #41
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So you think teaching 1st grade is worth the same amount as high school? Do we honestly need $80K people teaching grade school? Congratulations you got your masters degree to teach 1st grade, here's an automatic raise.
I see what you are saying, but I'm torn with your comment.

A good teacher is a good teacher regardless of the subject matter being taught. It isn't about the level of math they are teaching, or what grade they are teaching, it is about their ability to prepare the child for the next level. Kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, is the foundation for middle school, middle school is the foundation for high school, high school is the foundation for the real world, trade schools, vocational ed, and colleges.

Each level has a responsibility to prepare our children for the next level. To me the kindergarten teach MAY be just as important as the high school algebra teacher......

I see your point, but I have a different perspective on it.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:09 AM   #42
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So you think teaching 1st grade is worth the same amount as high school? Do we honestly need $80K people teaching grade school? Congratulations you got your masters degree to teach 1st grade, here's an automatic raise.
yes...without a foundation you can't build...were do you think the foundation comes from? While the salary might seem inflated, do you really think an auto worker needs to make $80k? does a CEO need to make 100+k to the millions of dollar salaries? The same CEO's that are fired for not performing and are given golden parachutes? I am not in a position to say what someone’s worth is, but I can tell you teachers earn every dime. I'm not sure what they should make, but if you ask me teachers should be some of the highest paid employees in the country. I would venture to say they do more and potentially have the most impact on our country than anyone. Without teachers you wouldn’t have doctors…its that simple

And just as you would want the most educated doctors working on you when you are sick, would you want the most educated working with your kids?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #43
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I see what you are saying, but I'm torn with your comment.

A good teacher is a good teacher regardless of the subject matter being taught. It isn't about the level of math they are teaching, or what grade they are teaching, it is about their ability to prepare the child for the next level. Kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, is the foundation for middle school, middle school is the foundation for high school, high school is the foundation for the real world, trade schools, vocational ed, and colleges.

Each level has a responsibility to prepare our children for the next level. To me the kindergarten teach MAY be just as important as the high school algebra teacher......

I see your point, but I have a different perspective on it.
I see that side also. It's hard to say one is more important than the other but it's also hard to say they are equal. The current pay system treats them equal. It's the nurse making as much as the doctor scenario. They can both be good at it but it thier is a huge gap in knowledge base to perform the job. I was just throwing the commet out there because my original statement is not a bad apple statement, it's systemic.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:14 AM   #44
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OH I forgot to add this...

<----not a teacher
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #45
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yes...without a foundation you can't build...were do you think the foundation comes from? While the salary might seem inflated, do you really think an auto worker needs to make $80k? does a CEO need to make 100+k to the millions of dollar salaries? The same CEO's that are fired for not performing and are given golden parachutes? I am not in a position to say what someone’s worth is, but I can tell you teachers earn every dime. I'm not sure what they should make, but if you ask me teachers should be some of the highest paid employees in the country. I would venture to say they do more and potentially have the most impact on our country than anyone. Without teachers you wouldn’t have doctors…its that simple

And just as you would want the most educated doctors working on you when you are sick, would you want the most educated working with your kids?
I can see that. On that same note though, I wouldn't expect to pay a brain surgeons salarly to have someone perform sports physicals on a daily basis.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:20 AM   #46
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I can see that. On that same note though, I wouldn't expect to pay a brain surgeons salarly to have someone perform sports physicals on a daily basis.
not the same, as in sports physicals have nothing to do with brain surgeons...however kindergarten has everything to do with 1st grade. And 1st grade has everything to do with 2nd, and so fourth down the line

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I see what you are saying, but I'm torn with your comment.

A good teacher is a good teacher regardless of the subject matter being taught. It isn't about the level of math they are teaching, or what grade they are teaching, it is about their ability to prepare the child for the next level. Kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, is the foundation for middle school, middle school is the foundation for high school, high school is the foundation for the real world, trade schools, vocational ed, and colleges.Each level has a responsibility to prepare our children for the next level. To me the kindergarten teach MAY be just as important as the high school algebra teacher......

I see your point, but I have a different perspective on it.
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yes...without a foundation you can't build...were do you think the foundation comes from? While the salary might seem inflated, do you really think an auto worker needs to make $80k? does a CEO need to make 100+k to the millions of dollar salaries? The same CEO's that are fired for not performing and are given golden parachutes? I am not in a position to say what someone’s worth is, but I can tell you teachers earn every dime. I'm not sure what they should make, but if you ask me teachers should be some of the highest paid employees in the country. I would venture to say they do more and potentially have the most impact on our country than anyone. Without teachers you wouldn’t have doctors…its that simple

And just as you would want the most educated doctors working on you when you are sick, would you want the most educated working with your kids?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #47
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not the same, as in sports physicals have nothing to do with brain surgeons...however kindergarten has everything to do with 1st grade. And 1st grade has everything to do with 2nd, and so fourth down the line
Wrong, they have to go through the same foundation to get there but one takes their education/skillset further than the other and is compensated for it. Your confusing the kids with the teachers I think. A person doesn't have to know shit about teaching 1st grade to teach high school math.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:28 AM   #48
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I can see that. On that same note though, I wouldn't expect to pay a brain surgeons salarly to have someone perform sports physicals on a daily basis.
Exactly, and the whole CEO to working man argument that some make is quite a bit off. The news is constantly speaking of all these excessively overpaid CEOs, which I agree that many are WAY overpaid. But at the same time do I feel a CEO of a 200 million dollar company is not overpaid at $200k a year, or even 300k, he is the CEO of the entire company don't forget. Should he make 5.5 million, no.

Not to mention for every overpaid CEO there a literally thousands (actually it is more like 10s of thousands) of employees. So saying "if only the CEOs were not paid millions, our worldly woes would be gone" is completely ludicrous.

Say a CEO making 5 million a year has 25,000 employees in his company. He decides to take a 50% pay cut and spread it out to the employees. Each employee would get a whopping $100. WOW, such progress. Now the same company cuts 100 jobs at the average wage of $40,000 to balance a budget they save $4,000,000. Nearly the entire wage of the CEO. Yes it is 100 to 1, but w/o the CEO where is said company heading, vs. a less than .05% cut in employees.

In the end paying every CEO in the nation nothing and making them do the job for free would not make enough dent in any of our wages to notice.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:30 AM   #49
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Wrong, they have to go through the same foundation to get there but one takes their education/skillset further than the other and is compensated for it. Your confusing the kids with the teachers I think. A person doesn't have to know shit about teaching 1st grade to teach high school math.
no what I'm saying is you cant have a high school teacher without the elementry school teacher...however you can have a brain surgeon without the sports doc...if you know what i mean
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #50
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no what I'm saying is you cant have a high school teacher without the elementry school teacher...however you can have a brain surgeon without the sports doc...if you know what i mean
I get it but I don't pay the miner and the goldsmith the same wage.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:39 AM   #51
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I get it but I don't pay the miner and the goldsmith the same wage.
I get that...but the difference in teaching is it takes the same amount of education to become a elementary teacher as it does with a high school teacher. It is a personal choice to which to teach...in fact most of the teachers I know are certified in both primary and secondary ed, so its a moot point to compare a miner that doesn't require skill to a goldsmith who does
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:48 AM   #52
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Yes you can have a high school teacher with out the elementary school teacher. A good parent can teach you all the information you need to know before you get to middle school. My parents actually corrected the F'ed up stuff I was "taught" when I was in elementary school. A K-4 should not make as much as a 5-8 and they should not make as much as a 9-12 grade teacher. Calculus/Chemistry is a wee bit harder then teaching johnny what 2+2 equals. These are basic concepts that should receive basic pay. So I believe that your building block example is pure bullshit and this argument doesn't happen in any other place then a school system.

I'm sure the guy that's awesome at putting tires on the car and goes and gets his masters at putting tires on a car at the plant should make the same as the master engine builder that went to master engine building school right? I mean putting tires on a car is I guess a building block for the car to roll right since I mean without tires the car couldn't go anywhere even if it had a great engine . . . right? Or . . anyone other Thom Dick or Harry could also put the tires on with out the additional education and for half the pay.

Yeah asinine but ehh . . . Who's John Galt?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #53
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I get that...but the difference in teaching is it takes the same amount of education to become a elementary teacher as it does with a high school teacher. It is a personal choice to which to teach...in fact most of the teachers I know are certified in both primary and secondary ed, so its a moot point to compare a miner that doesn't require skill to a goldsmith who does
Maybe the same amount of credits. At WMU it's not the same courses so not the same skills. WMU has 2 different programs, K-5, 6-12. http://www.wmich.edu/teaching/academics/elementary.html
http://www.wmich.edu/teaching/academics/secondary.html
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Old March 4th, 2011, 11:56 AM   #54
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Yes you can have a high school teacher with out the elementary school teacher. A good parent can teach you all the information you need to know before you get to middle school. My parents actually corrected the F'ed up stuff I was "taught" when I was in elementary school. A K-4 should not make as much as a 5-8 and they should not make as much as a 9-12 grade teacher. Calculus/Chemistry is a wee bit harder then teaching johnny what 2+2 equals. These are basic concepts that should receive basic pay. So I believe that your building block example is pure bullshit and this argument doesn't happen in any other place then a school system.

I'm sure the guy that's awesome at putting tires on the car and goes and gets his masters at putting tires on a car at the plant should make the same as the master engine builder that went to master engine building school right? I mean putting tires on a car is I guess a building block for the car to roll right since I mean without tires the car couldn't go anywhere even if it had a great engine . . . right? Or . . anyone other Thom Dick or Harry could also put the tires on with out the additional education and for half the pay.

Yeah asinine but ehh . . . Who's John Galt?
Go away.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:05 PM   #55
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Yes you can have a high school teacher with out the elementary school teacher. A good parent can teach you all the information you need to know before you get to middle school. My parents actually corrected the F'ed up stuff I was "taught" when I was in elementary school. A K-4 should not make as much as a 5-8 and they should not make as much as a 9-12 grade teacher. Calculus/Chemistry is a wee bit harder then teaching johnny what 2+2 equals. These are basic concepts that should receive basic pay. So I believe that your building block example is pure bullshit and this argument doesn't happen in any other place then a school system.

I'm sure the guy that's awesome at putting tires on the car and goes and gets his masters at putting tires on a car at the plant should make the same as the master engine builder that went to master engine building school right? I mean putting tires on a car is I guess a building block for the car to roll right since I mean without tires the car couldn't go anywhere even if it had a great engine . . . right? Or . . anyone other Thom Dick or Harry could also put the tires on with out the additional education and for half the pay.

Yeah asinine but ehh . . . Who's John Galt?

hey homo try teaching Calculus to a six year old...oh wait you can't because cognitively they are not ready yet…so 2+2 is just as hard for a six year old to grasp as Calculus is to a 15yr…you really are stupid you know that
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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #56
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I get that...but the difference in teaching is it takes the same amount of education to become a elementary teacher as it does with a high school teacher. It is a personal choice to which to teach...in fact most of the teachers I know are certified in both primary and secondary ed, so its a moot point to compare a miner that doesn't require skill to a goldsmith who does
Until teachers are paid on performance, this entire argument is moot. Education does not = pay, period. It may get you started but until you deliver it does not matter. You could have a damn doctorate and not be able to do the real job, in the world and get results.

This happens every day, I have many people working for me that have degrees (although no degree is required in my field), a degree is a starting point, not a guarantee that the person can perform. I have many times replaced a highly qualified person (with a degree) that could not do his or her job, based on performance. Often times replaced with someone that on paper was not as qualified.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:13 PM   #57
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Until teachers are paid on performance, this entire argument is moot. Education does not = pay, period. It may get you started but until you deliver it does not matter. You could have a damn doctorate and not be able to do the real job, in the world and get results.

This happens every day, I have many people working for me that have degrees (although no degree is required in my field), to a agree is a starting point, not a guarantee that the person can perform. I have many times replaced a highly qualified person (with a degree) that could not do his or her job, based on performance. Often times replaced with someone that on paper was not as qualified.
in reality they are...all schools under go mandatory testing for their students...if they don't pass the district misses out on money that they count on as part of their budget...and believe me, if they don't get their money they will weed out the weak link...and if teachers are as bad as everyone makes them out to be then it must be a god damn modern marvel that anything ever gets done

Also in the world of education, education does equal pay. In fact there are laws on the books that say exactly that(in MI). The theory behind it is that the more education the educator has, the better educator they will be at educating the uneducated. It’s called continuing education credits and all teachers must take a certain amount of credits per year or lose their certification to teach(again in MI).

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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:16 PM   #58
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Exactly, and the whole CEO to working man argument that some make is quite a bit off. The news is constantly speaking of all these excessively overpaid CEOs, which I agree that many are WAY overpaid. But at the same time do I feel a CEO of a 200 million dollar company is not overpaid at $200k a year, or even 300k, he is the CEO of the entire company don't forget. Should he make 5.5 million, no.

Not to mention for every overpaid CEO there a literally thousands (actually it is more like 10s of thousands) of employees. So saying "if only the CEOs were not paid millions, our worldly woes would be gone" is completely ludicrous.

Say a CEO making 5 million a year has 25,000 employees in his company. He decides to take a 50% pay cut and spread it out to the employees. Each employee would get a whopping $100. WOW, such progress. Now the same company cuts 100 jobs at the average wage of $40,000 to balance a budget they save $4,000,000. Nearly the entire wage of the CEO. Yes it is 100 to 1, but w/o the CEO where is said company heading, vs. a less than .05% cut in employees.

In the end paying every CEO in the nation nothing and making them do the job for free would not make enough dent in any of our wages to notice.
many, not all CEO's earn their wage, and you proved it, again I think we agree. Truth is many of these guys are worth their salt.

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Go away.
a-fuckin-men.

Too bad he started the thread

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hey homo try teaching Calculus to a six year old...oh wait you can't because cognitively they are not ready yet…so 2+2 is just as hard for a six year old to grasp as Calculus is to a 15yr…you really are stupid you know that
It's like you know some teachers or something, because in this example you are spot on.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:25 PM   #59
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HCH, i don't mean to quote buy you have some very valid and interesting points.

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You don’t believe they are necessary, but what would you say if one day your boss decided to let you go? Your performance shows that you are the best in your position at your particular place of employment. You bring in the most and put out the most. And as a result of your performance based compensation they have to pay you twice as much as the next guy. You HAVE earned it. You are now fired because you make too much money. Or you are fired because the boss decides he/she just doesn’t like you. This is not an argument against performance based compensation, I’m all for that. My point is it is a union’s job to protect you from being fired just because they want too. My example is extreme, but it could be a reality. In fact you already know somebody that this has happened to. We can talk privately and I’ll tell you who
I agree You HAVE earned it. but at the same time it was never really YOURs. "It" belongs to the owner. "It" is their business. But your counter point later is valid in this argument, if they think they can do it without you or for less then you will be gone.


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Are you referring to the ones who have paid into the social security system since the day they started working. And when I refer to the system I meant an interest bearing account that was self supporting until the politicians decided to raid the coffer to pay for things they had no business paying for all in the name of buying votes. Also do you mean medicade? You know the system they started paying into since its conception? Another self supporting account until it was raided for the sole propose of special interests in an effort to buy votes. All the while paying federal, state and local income taxes. Meanwhile the politicians impose tax increases on the very same people that are paying them, ask for cuts out of those same people, yet give themselves raises. They live high on the hog with a life style provided to them on the backs of the American worker. They enjoy the very best of health care without paying a dime for it thanks again to the American worker, and then have the balls to say everybody else needs to buck up and pay their share! Our grandparents built this country, let them have it…they have earned it.
I couldn't agree more. I think the American public is telling them this. I do pay my taxes but I understand I probably won't see a dime of Social Security or Medicare in my lifetime.

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So you think teaching 1st grade is worth the same amount as high school? Do we honestly need $80K people teaching grade school? Congratulations you got your masters degree to teach 1st grade, here's an automatic raise.
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yes...without a foundation you can't build...were do you think the foundation comes from? While the salary might seem inflated, do you really think an auto worker needs to make $80k? does a CEO need to make 100+k to the millions of dollar salaries? The same CEO's that are fired for not performing and are given golden parachutes? I am not in a position to say what someone’s worth is, but I can tell you teachers earn every dime. I'm not sure what they should make, but if you ask me teachers should be some of the highest paid employees in the country. I would venture to say they do more and potentially have the most impact on our country than anyone. Without teachers you wouldn’t have doctors…its that simple

And just as you would want the most educated doctors working on you when you are sick, would you want the most educated working with your kids?
Teachers currently get what they deserve. I am constantly reminded of how little they get paid, but they fail to recognize the pro-rated amount when compared to a days work. Beside it's not like someone forced them to become a teacher. THEY CHOSE TO BECOME A TEACHER. I chose the automotive industry at the same time it was falling apart. If I wanted to be a minority in an industry and maximize my pay for performance I would have chose cosmetics or something. But let's get real, I'm not proficient in that. Which answers part of my own statement, teachers are proficient in teaching, unfortunate for them there is more of them than jobs available.


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Exactly, and the whole CEO to working man argument that some make is quite a bit off. The news is constantly speaking of all these excessively overpaid CEOs, which I agree that many are WAY overpaid. But at the same time do I feel a CEO of a 200 million dollar company is not overpaid at $200k a year, or even 300k, he is the CEO of the entire company don't forget. Should he make 5.5 million, no.

Not to mention for every overpaid CEO there a literally thousands (actually it is more like 10s of thousands) of employees. So saying "if only the CEOs were not paid millions, our worldly woes would be gone" is completely ludicrous.

Say a CEO making 5 million a year has 25,000 employees in his company. He decides to take a 50% pay cut and spread it out to the employees. Each employee would get a whopping $100. WOW, such progress. Now the same company cuts 100 jobs at the average wage of $40,000 to balance a budget they save $4,000,000. Nearly the entire wage of the CEO. Yes it is 100 to 1, but w/o the CEO where is said company heading, vs. a less than .05% cut in employees.

In the end paying every CEO in the nation nothing and making them do the job for free would not make enough dent in any of our wages to notice.
I would assume anyone being paid $4M would be brining 5x that in value over the 4 - 5 years. It's mutual agreement that the CEO agrees they are worth it, likewise the employer agrees they are worth it. We are all adults no one is forcing others to hire CEO's for Millions. I know ours only make a few hundred thousand.


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I get that...but the difference in teaching is it takes the same amount of education to become a elementary teacher as it does with a high school teacher. It is a personal choice to which to teach...in fact most of the teachers I know are certified in both primary and secondary ed, so its a moot point to compare a miner that doesn't require skill to a goldsmith who does


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Originally Posted by Chiefwoohaw View Post
Yes you can have a high school teacher with out the elementary school teacher. A good parent can teach you all the information you need to know before you get to middle school. My parents actually corrected the F'ed up stuff I was "taught" when I was in elementary school. A K-4 should not make as much as a 5-8 and they should not make as much as a 9-12 grade teacher. Calculus/Chemistry is a wee bit harder then teaching johnny what 2+2 equals. These are basic concepts that should receive basic pay. So I believe that your building block example is pure bullshit and this argument doesn't happen in any other place then a school system.

I'm sure the guy that's awesome at putting tires on the car and goes and gets his masters at putting tires on a car at the plant should make the same as the master engine builder that went to master engine building school right? I mean putting tires on a car is I guess a building block for the car to roll right since I mean without tires the car couldn't go anywhere even if it had a great engine . . . right? Or . . anyone other Thom Dick or Harry could also put the tires on with out the additional education and for half the pay.

Yeah asinine but ehh . . . Who's John Galt?
Nice John Galt reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
hey homo try teaching Calculus to a six year old...oh wait you can't because cognitively they are not ready yet…so 2+2 is just as hard for a six year old to grasp as Calculus is to a 15yr…you really are stupid you know that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter9 View Post
Until teachers are paid on performance, this entire argument is moot. Education does not = pay, period. It may get you started but until you deliver it does not matter. You could have a damn doctorate and not be able to do the real job, in the world and get results.

This happens every day, I have many people working for me that have degrees (although no degree is required in my field), a degree is a starting point, not a guarantee that the person can perform. I have many times replaced a highly qualified person (with a degree) that could not do his or her job, based on performance. Often times replaced with someone that on paper was not as qualified.
Interviewing summer interns here and I see the same thing. Some of the braniacs wouldn't last 5 minutes here.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by InTeRnEt_RyAn View Post

Nice John Galt reference.




.

too bad he's too stupid to get it and has no idea what it means
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