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Old March 4th, 2011, 09:30 AM   #21
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I think the what forced the state governments to do what they are doing is the years of the unions refusing to look at reality and the fact that sometimes there just isn't enough money to pay their demands, especially in the public sector. I mean, they kinda backed the local governments into a corner and what else were they supposed to do? Shut the state down and Road Warrior it?


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Old March 4th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #22
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I think to many people learn the wrong things about history. this sounds like the battles that started the unions in the first place. the trick here is to set up a program that works for everyone. that or leave it alone.

the way I see it if they break the union then the minimum wage is next. you too can make pennies a day like they do over seas.

hey, maybe we can look forward to the child labor laws being repealed too?
why should we have a minimum wage requirement anyway?

1. It is currently too high to begin with.
2. It only encourages laziness
3. It doesn't keep up with inflation anyway.

Pay employees for what they are worth, and get rid of the minimum wage "laws".
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Old March 4th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #23
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Keep telling yourself that. There are not union jobs for all positions in the US. So how does the union set the scale for these positions?
And if this was the case, why don't all of us make $74+ dollars an hour (including benefits), with kick ass insurance and a sweet pension?
who makes $74+/hr including benefits with a kick ass insurance and a sweet pension plan?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 09:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by kickstand View Post
why should we have a minimum wage requirement anyway?

1. It is currently too high to begin with.
2. It only encourages laziness
3. It doesn't keep up with inflation anyway.

Pay employees for what they are worth, and get rid of the minimum wage "laws".
You raise some good points. Is it cheaper to dish out welfare or have increased consumer costs with unrealistic minimum wage? Are we cold enough to do away with both? Or is it that even with higher minimum wage that the job market is smaller than the workforce and employers have the ability to employ people that deserve their wage?
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Old March 4th, 2011, 09:51 AM   #25
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^^ Well then, thank god for the union or I would have a job??
Hardly, at one point in the last hundred years the statement you make about the union making the middle class is spot on. But in the last 25 years, the union has not made the middle class, but segregated the middle class. Creating a very tainted view of itself, from non union people of course.

The union does more to buy what it wants from legislation everyday than almost any other area of the business world (oil and insurance, obviously). Often times what they are buying, is not even a benefit to the "working class".
The time for unions has come and gone, or at least the level of persuasion that has been held for so many years.

No one, and I mean no one, should have guaranteed wage increases, jobs/position, bonuses, etc. Merit recognition is what made america long before a union was thought of. People will work hard and always prevail, those that do not will not. If you teach and you cannot teach, but just want summers off, you should be unemployed and no contract should give you wages increases guaranteed or a guaranteed position. You ass should be sent packing, and someone should have your job that WANTS to earn the position to teach based on their skills and willingness to complete the job on MERIT, and the wage should be based on such.

If it was run like a real business, this is what we would have. Free market capitalism will set wages based on skill set, experience, etc. People that can do the job, will set the wage base we do not need a union to do that. If an electrician is skilled and will work for $19 hr, then they will pay it, if they can find someone to do it for $17 with the same skill set then so be it. I don't know any skilled position person that will work for low wages. But MANY, MANY people that can do a particular job, will take those jobs that might currently be union for less money. How is that bad?

America has become a bunch of self serving, what about me, whine asses. The reason we are going to hell in a hand basket is we are not willing to look at things as they are. People everywhere will work for less in todays economy, but no one wants to take the "hit". Well, it is simple, take the hit, or lose altogether. Things will continue to get much worse, unless we can "right-size" america. Mexico, China, India, etc will continue to get more and more wealthy and take more jobs if we cannot figure out how to compete. In nearly every industry, WAGES are the highest cost outside COGS, so to compete we have two choices, lower the cost of COGS or lower wages to match up with our competition. Do it or not, we will either be more unemployed or working for less. Guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it to, our parents and grandparents already did it.

Last edited by Hunter9; March 4th, 2011 at 10:00 AM.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:02 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
If you take Wisconsin for example, their public unions agreed to ALL concessions proposed by the Governor except to give up the right of collective bargaining. I’ve said it before, nobody cared that the public sector was far behind in wage earnings compared to the private sector. They made a shit wage and nobody cared as long as they were getting theirs. What kept people in the public sector was they were usually compensated with decent benefit packages and had relative job security. Now fast forward to 20XX, economy takes a shit, people start earning less, and the gap between the public employees wag and the private employees wag shrinks. Mean while the public employees benefit package shrinks. Now that the private employee is earning a wag that directly compares to a public employee they start crying foul. They had turned the public employee into a villain which isn’t right. During the good times nobody gave a shit what teachers, cops, fire fighters made, all they knew is they earned more. Now they are forced to live on wages that these folks had been doing for years and suddenly it’s the public employees fault the budget messes that many towns, cities, and states are facing. Never mind the fact that it has been proven all over the country and more locally around here that it was YEARS of abuse by top public elected/hired officials that have caused this mess by back door deals and out right theft. In an attempt to cover their asses they point to the unions.

The main problem with the unions as they are just as corrupt as the officials they are trying to fight. Unions have lost their way, which was to protect the worker, and has become an engine to protect those at the top. It’s flawed on both ends of the court, officials and the unions…however is not the workers fault. The lazy cop, the shitty teachers and the no show fireman are the exception not the norm. However thanks to media attention and public misconception they as a whole are portrayed as all being lazy, all being worthless and a drain on society.

Whos fault is it? Certainly not the workers fighting for fair compensation. I’d say it’s the general public at large for keep voting in the a-holes that started this mess…
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Originally Posted by Hunter9 View Post
^^ Well then, thank god for the union or I would have a job??
Hardly, at one point in the last hundred years the statement you make about the union making the middle class is spot on. But in the last 25 years, the union has not made the middle class, but segregated the middle class. Creating a very tainted view of itself, from non union people of course.
The union does more to buy what it wants from legislation everyday than almost any other area of the business world (oil and insurance, obviously). Often times what they are buying, is not even a benefit to the "working class".
The time for unions has come and gone, or at least the level of persuasion that has been held for so many years.
No one, and I mean no one, should have guaranteed wage increases, jobs/position, bonuses, etc. Merit recognition is what made america long before a union was thought of. People will work hard and always prevail, those that do not will not. If you teach and you cannot teach, but just want summers off so that was your major in college, you should be unemployed and no contract should give you wages increases guaranteed or a guaranteed position. You ass should be sent packing, and someone should have your job that WANTS to earn the position to teach based on their skills and willingness to complete the job on MERIT, and the wage should be based on such. If it was run like a real business, this is what we would have. Free market capitalism will set wages based on skill set, experience, etc. People that can do the job, will set the wage base we do not need a union to do that. If an electrician is skilled and will work for $19 hr, then they will pay it, if they can find someone to do it for $17 with the same skill set then so be it. I don't know any skilled position person that will work for low wages. But MANY, MANY people that can do a particular job, will take those jobs that might currently be union for less money. How is that bad?
America has become a bunch of self serving, what about me, whine asses. The reason we are going to hell in a hand basket is we are not willing to look at things as they are. People everywhere will work for less in todays economy, but no one wants to take the "hit". Well, it is simple, take the hit, or lose altogether. Things will continue to get much worse, unless we can "right-size" america. Mexico, China, India, etc will continue to get more and more wealthy and take more jobs if we cannot figure out how to compete. In nearly every industry, WAGES are the highest cost outside COGS, so to compete we have two choices, lower the cost of COGS and lower wages to match up with our competition. Do it or not, we will either be more unemployed or working for less. Guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it to, our parents and grandparents already did it.
Two lengthy sides of the argument, but full of valid points. I just wonder one thing? Where in the Constitution does the gov't have any of this power? Oh that's right it's not until the "Ammendments" that they grant themselves such a power.
I agree it's our own fault for voting these people in. But likewise, the union collectively contributes to this bad behavior as much as anyone else. I won't go as far to say more than anyone else, but certainly as much.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hunter9 View Post
^^ Well then, thank god for the union or I would have a job??
Hardly, at one point in the last hundred years the statement you make about the union making the middle class is spot on. But in the last 25 years, the union has not made the middle class, but segregated the middle class. Creating a very tainted view of itself, from non union people of course.

The union does more to buy what it wants from legislation everyday than almost any other area of the business world (oil and insurance, obviously). Often times what they are buying, is not even a benefit to the "working class".
The time for unions has come and gone, or at least the level of persuasion that has been held for so many years.

No one, and I mean no one, should have guaranteed wage increases, jobs/position, bonuses, etc. Merit recognition is what made america long before a union was thought of. People will work hard and always prevail, those that do not will not. If you teach and you cannot teach, but just want summers off, you should be unemployed and no contract should give you wages increases guaranteed or a guaranteed position. You ass should be sent packing, and someone should have your job that WANTS to earn the position to teach based on their skills and willingness to complete the job on MERIT, and the wage should be based on such.

If it was run like a real business, this is what we would have. Free market capitalism will set wages based on skill set, experience, etc. People that can do the job, will set the wage base we do not need a union to do that. If an electrician is skilled and will work for $19 hr, then they will pay it, if they can find someone to do it for $17 with the same skill set then so be it. I don't know any skilled position person that will work for low wages. But MANY, MANY people that can do a particular job, will take those jobs that might currently be union for less money. How is that bad?

America has become a bunch of self serving, what about me, whine asses. The reason we are going to hell in a hand basket is we are not willing to look at things as they are. People everywhere will work for less in todays economy, but no one wants to take the "hit". Well, it is simple, take the hit, or lose altogether. Things will continue to get much worse, unless we can "right-size" america. Mexico, China, India, etc will continue to get more and more wealthy and take more jobs if we cannot figure out how to compete. In nearly every industry, WAGES are the highest cost outside COGS, so to compete we have two choices, lower the cost of COGS or lower wages to match up with our competition. Do it or not, we will either be more unemployed or working for less. Guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it to, our parents and grandparents already did it.
Wow, spot on. Take a good look at your grandparents living it up with a house, 2 cars, a boat, a cottage/florida home..........it'll be another 100 years or so before you see that in the "middle class" again.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #28
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You raise some good points. Is it cheaper to dish out welfare or have increased consumer costs with unrealistic minimum wage? Are we cold enough to do away with both? Or is it that even with higher minimum wage that the job market is smaller than the workforce and employers have the ability to employ people that deserve their wage?
Personally I think we should do away with government assistance as well as minimum wage.

You gonna go out and dig ditches for $4/hr? Hell no, and neither is anyone else, but you may do it for $8 or 10, or 12, and when employers find a good ditch digger they will pay a fair wage that the market bares.

I am not unionized, and I do not make a minimum wage. I make a wage that I have proven I am worth to my employer based on my performance.

You go to an interview and you negotiate your wage based on past performance and future potential. If you live up to your potential your employer has gotten a "bargain" or a fair deal, if you do not (at least in my field) you walk the streets looking for a new opportunity.

I also make commission, so I have a base plus commission, I am willing to take a lower base salary if the commission package is aggressive, or if it is not, I request a higher salary.

Point is if you flip burgers at mcdonalds for a "fair" wage, whatever that is, and you show up on time, and can make orders quickly, and keep your work place sanitary, and clean up at the end of your shift, and stay on top of your tasks, you deserve a higher wage than the person who does the bare minimum.

I strongly believe in performance based wages, not minimum wages.

Even in a salary type role, it is very easy at the end of the quarter, or the end of the year to evaluate if that person was effective and efficient and good at their job. Pay them their worth, or they will find another company that will do so.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:09 AM   #29
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Two lengthy sides of the argument, but full of valid points. I just wonder one thing? Where in the Constitution does the gov't have any of this power? Oh that's right it's not until the "Ammendments" that they grant themselves such a power.
I agree it's our own fault for voting these people in. But likewise, the union collectively contributes to this bad behavior as much as anyone else. I won't go as far to say more than anyone else, but certainly as much.
It gets heated, but I agree. I don't blame unions as a person and am not trying to attack a union member. But they are a corrupt entity, no different than government and big business. If we all do not take things back we will not get better, but worse, much worse.
Much of american is broken, healthcare, social security, welfare, etc. I am not claiming to have the answers, but what we are doing is not working.
It is the proverbial definition of insanity, continue to do the same thing expecting a different result.
We need change, sometimes change in painless, other times very painful. And many times the change is not right and does not correct the situation. But change we must, regardless. We need to try something different in an attempt to right the ship, or we will all be at the bottom of the ocean.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:13 AM   #30
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Personally I think we should do away with government assistance as well as minimum wage.

You gonna go out and dig ditches for $4/hr? Hell no, and neither is anyone else, but you may do it for $8 or 10, or 12, and when employers find a good ditch digger they will pay a fair wage that the market bares.

I am not unionized, and I do not make a minimum wage. I make a wage that I have proven I am worth to my employer based on my performance.

You go to an interview and you negotiate your wage based on past performance and future potential. If you live up to your potential your employer has gotten a "bargain" or a fair deal, if you do not (at least in my field) you walk the streets looking for a new opportunity.

I also make commission, so I have a base plus commission, I am willing to take a lower base salary if the commission package is aggressive, or if it is not, I request a higher salary.

Point is if you flip burgers at mcdonalds for a "fair" wage, whatever that is, and you show up on time, and can make orders quickly, and keep your work place sanitary, and clean up at the end of your shift, and stay on top of your tasks, you deserve a higher wage than the person who does the bare minimum.

I strongly believe in performance based wages, not minimum wages.

Even in a salary type role, it is very easy at the end of the quarter, or the end of the year to evaluate if that person was effective and efficient and good at their job. Pay them their worth, or they will find another company that will do so.
X2, we do actually agree on this. I too am salary, no commission. But a performance based bonus that makes up 25-30% of my annual wage. Guess what I perform, or I will be sent packing. I have watched many in my position go packing because they could not cut it, and yes the job pays very very well, as long as I can deliver.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:16 AM   #31
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you have just proven my point...I really hope you get laid off
haha, please hold your breath for that one
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:24 AM   #32
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Wow, spot on. Take a good look at your grandparents living it up with a house, 2 cars, a boat, a cottage/florida home..........it'll be another 100 years or so before you see that in the "middle class" again.

Are you referring to the ones who have paid into the social security system since the day they started working. And when I refer to the system I meant an interest bearing account that was self supporting until the politicians decided to raid the coffer to pay for things they had no business paying for all in the name of buying votes. Also do you mean medicade? You know the system they started paying into since its conception? Another self supporting account until it was raided for the sole propose of special interests in an effort to buy votes. All the while paying federal, state and local income taxes. Meanwhile the politicians impose tax increases on the very same people that are paying them, ask for cuts out of those same people, yet give themselves raises. They live high on the hog with a life style provided to them on the backs of the American worker. They enjoy the very best of health care without paying a dime for it thanks again to the American worker, and then have the balls to say everybody else needs to buck up and pay their share! Our grandparents built this country, let them have it…they have earned it.


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It gets heated, but I agree. I don't blame unions as a person and am not trying to attack a union member. But they are a corrupt entity, no different than government and big business. If we all do not take things back we will not get better, but worse, much worse.Much of american is broken, healthcare, social security, welfare, etc. I am not claiming to have the answers, but what we are doing is not working.
It is the proverbial definition of insanity, continue to do the same thing expecting a different result.
We need change, sometimes change in painless, other times very painful. And many times the change is not right and does not correct the situation. But change we must, regardless. We need to try something different in an attempt to right the ship, or we will all be at the bottom of the ocean.
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If you take Wisconsin for example, their public unions agreed to ALL concessions proposed by the Governor except to give up the right of collective bargaining. I’ve said it before, nobody cared that the public sector was far behind in wage earnings compared to the private sector. They made a shit wage and nobody cared as long as they were getting theirs. What kept people in the public sector was they were usually compensated with decent benefit packages and had relative job security. Now fast forward to 20XX, economy takes a shit, people start earning less, and the gap between the public employees wag and the private employees wag shrinks. Mean while the public employees benefit package shrinks. Now that the private employee is earning a wag that directly compares to a public employee they start crying foul. They had turned the public employee into a villain which isn’t right. During the good times nobody gave a shit what teachers, cops, fire fighters made, all they knew is they earned more. Now they are forced to live on wages that these folks had been doing for years and suddenly it’s the public employees fault the budget messes that many towns, cities, and states are facing. Never mind the fact that it has been proven all over the country and more locally around here that it was YEARS of abuse by top public elected/hired officials that have caused this mess by back door deals and out right theft. In an attempt to cover their asses they point to the unions.

The main problem with the unions as they are just as corrupt as the officials they are trying to fight. Unions have lost their way, which was to protect the worker, and has become an engine to protect those at the top. It’s flawed on both ends of the court, officials and the unions…however is not the workers fault. The lazy cop, the shitty teachers and the no show fireman are the exception not the norm. However thanks to media attention and public misconception they as a whole are portrayed as all being lazy, all being worthless and a drain on society.

Whos fault is it? Certainly not the workers fighting for fair compensation. I’d say it’s the general public at large for keep voting in the a-holes that started this mess…
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:24 AM   #33
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haha, please hold your breath for that one
no, I won't...but I do hope you lose everything
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:26 AM   #34
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X2, we do actually agree on this. I too am salary, no commission. But a performance based bonus that makes up 25-30% of my annual wage. Guess what I perform, or I will be sent packing. I have watched many in my position go packing because they could not cut it, and yes the job pays very very well, as long as I can deliver.
Yup, I have no issue with your stance at all.

I don't typically get too far into the Union discussions, I don't believe they are all bad, but in general I also don't believe they are all necessary.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:29 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Are you referring to the ones who have paid into the social security system since the day they started working. And when I refer to the system I meant an interest bearing account that was self supporting until the politicians decided to raid the coffer to pay for things they had no business paying for all in the name of buying votes. Also do you mean medicade? You know the system they started paying into since its conception? Another self supporting account until it was raided for the sole propose of special interests in an effort to buy votes. All the while paying federal, state and local income taxes. Meanwhile the politicians impose tax increases on the very same people that are paying them, ask for cuts out of those same people, yet give themselves raises. They live high on the hog with a life style provided to them on the backs of the American worker. They enjoy the very best of health care without paying a dime for it thanks again to the American worker, and then have the balls to say everybody else needs to buck up and pay their share! Our grandparents built this country, let them have it…they have earned it.
I didn't say they didn't earn it. If you had any reading comprehension skills you would clearly see that I said to take a look at it because you won't be seeing it again any time soon.
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no, I won't...but I do hope you lose everything
haha, that's a fuked up thing to say. Srsly
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:29 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
The main problem with the unions as they are just as corrupt as the officials they are trying to fight. Unions have lost their way, which was to protect the worker, and has become an engine to protect those at the top. It’s flawed on both ends of the court, officials and the unions…however is not the workers fault. The lazy cop, the shitty teachers and the no show fireman are the exception not the norm. However thanks to media attention and public misconception they as a whole are portrayed as all being lazy, all being worthless and a drain on society.

Whos fault is it? Certainly not the workers fighting for fair compensation. I’d say it’s the general public at large for keep voting in the a-holes that started this mess…
I could not agree more.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:34 AM   #37
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Yup, I have no issue with your stance at all.

I don't typically get too far into the Union discussions, I don't believe they are all bad, but in general I also don't believe they are all necessary.
You don’t believe they are necessary, but what would you say if one day your boss decided to let you go? Your performance shows that you are the best in your position at your particular place of employment. You bring in the most and put out the most. And as a result of your performance based compensation they have to pay you twice as much as the next guy. You HAVE earned it. You are now fired because you make too much money. Or you are fired because the boss decides he/she just doesn’t like you. This is not an argument against performance based compensation, I’m all for that. My point is it is a union’s job to protect you from being fired just because they want too. My example is extreme, but it could be a reality. In fact you already know somebody that this has happened to. We can talk privately and I’ll tell you who
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #38
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I didn't say they didn't earn it. If you had any reading comprehension skills you would clearly see that I said to take a look at it because you won't be seeing it again any time soon.
haha, that's a fuked up thing to say. Srsly

true, but so is saying every teacher doesn't deserve their salary because of a few bad apples…teachers work hard…they also have earned it
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:49 AM   #39
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So you think teaching 1st grade is worth the same amount as high school? Do we honestly need $80K people teaching grade school? Congratulations you got your masters degree to teach 1st grade, here's an automatic raise.
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Old March 4th, 2011, 10:56 AM   #40
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You don’t believe they are necessary, but what would you say if one day your boss decided to let you go? Your performance shows that you are the best in your position at your particular place of employment. You bring in the most and put out the most. And as a result of your performance based compensation they have to pay you twice as much as the next guy. You HAVE earned it. You are now fired because you make too much money. Or you are fired because the boss decides he/she just doesn’t like you. This is not an argument against performance based compensation, I’m all for that. My point is it is a union’s job to protect you from being fired just because they want too. My example is extreme, but it could be a reality. In fact you already know somebody that this has happened to. We can talk privately and I’ll tell you who
Your extreme example is reality, I was let go from a job exactly as you describe. May 2006. Small company, awesome commission structure, top producer in the company (12 person company). Top 3 fired, no explanation, no reason. Friend in the company informs me that a new commission plan was rolled out one week later.

We'll talk over a beer and I will share some intimate details into this situation. Unfortunately in my case there was no union that could have prevented it, no laws to prevent it, it was just life.

I'm certainly no angel, and I had some beef with the owners of the company, and I made it known, but I continued to be their top producer, they fired me, and me and the competition down the street raped and pillaged all of their major accounts. I made about 75% of the money I was making, but the satisfaction of payback filled the other 25%. It was a lesson learned as far as performance, and attitude.
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