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Old February 19th, 2011, 09:01 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Cracks me up. Snyder won by a landslide because he told people he would use business philosophy to get the state back on track. So when he does, everyone bitches.

Kudos to governors like Snyder, the WI governor (forgot his name) and Chris Christie of NJ. It's about time someone told the unions "NO".
Amen.

Michigan is addicted to overspending, and it will be painful to go through withdrawl.

My state taxes will be going up, which I don't like. Funding to my local schools will be reduced, resulting cuts to programs (like the one I'm involved in on a non-paying basis). And I suspect I'm seeing the last of $16.25 ORV permits (I buy 4-5 a year) and any manner of trail maintenance schedule.

But it has to happen. MI can't go on living beyond it's means indefinitely. Revenue is down. The population of net contributors is down while the population of net consumers is up.

Just as he promised, he's applying business principles to running the state instead of political principles. He's choosing to do what's right, rather than what's popular or politically expedient. He's doing things a politician would never do, challenging sacred cows like unions and that 600 lb political gorilla senior citizens.

Just like the Governor of WI. He's doing exactly what he said he would do when he ran - what the majority of WI voters (like MI voters) said they want. It's telling that unions (with direct financial and other support from the DNC and out-of-state agitators) are trying to use bullying, threats, and brute force to overthrow the will of the voters (their employers).

Also note that in Madison, many of the protesters and people occupying the state capitol are actually students from Wisconsin - not union members.

Also note that the media has no issue with posters and signs showing crosshairs on the WI Governor's forehead, but an advertisement with crosshairs over a Congressional district map in AZ made Sarah Palin, the Tea Party movement, and the guilty of putting a hit out on Congresswoman Giffords...

There's been more leadership from the new governor in WI over the past seven weeks than from Obama over the pst two years...
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Old February 19th, 2011, 09:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trailrig View Post
...

I read something very alarming on the web (not always true, i know) and I checked other online sources to see if the information was credible.

average salary in 1991 33,000 dollars

average salary in 2011 33,000 dollars

everything costs more (inflation) for me my money does not go as far, as it would in 1991.

but the top 10 percent earners have seen and average wealth growth of 33% over the 20 year span.
Look at this data from West Bloomfield, where teachers had a "sick out" this week while they're negotiating for pay increases:

Teacher salary 1999: $31,881
Teacher salary 2011: $85,836

Retirement contribution by district on behalf of teacher 1999: $3717
Retirement contribution by district on behalf of teacher 1999: $16,854

They also have NO premium sharing on their health insurance, which has NO deductibles.

U.S. Bureau of Labor stats show the following:

From 2001 to 2009, state workers have seen their average weekly pay jump 33 percent from $796 to $1,058. Local government workers had a 29 percent increase from $647 to $837. Meanwhile, the private sector workers had a 14 percent increase from $722 to $824.

The issue we're seeing is that the pay of taxpayer-funded workers cannot grow more than the pay of the taxpayers, or there is a shortfall. Or in harsher biological terms (with no aspersions cast on the individuals involved, only the flawed system) a successful parasite has to take care that it doesn't take so much it kills the host organism...
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Old February 19th, 2011, 11:53 AM   #23
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I'd like to know where you are getting your numbers. I have worked the private sector and in government and do not agree with some of them. I can assure you, the private sector has seen more than 14% in raises.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:10 PM   #24
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I'd like to know where you are getting your numbers. I have worked the private sector and in government and do not agree with some of them. I can assure you, the private sector has seen more than 14% in raises.
If that were true, whats the problem?
Public workers can only make what the public can afford to pay.

As far as I have read his numbers are correct btw.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #25
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I'd like to know where you are getting your numbers. I have worked the private sector and in government and do not agree with some of them. I can assure you, the private sector has seen more than 14% in raises.
These are gross averages reflecting the entire country and all types of private-sector jobs, many of which saw pay cuts over that time period.

They're the best govt numbers I could find, assuming they would be closer to objective than labor or business groups.

It also highlights that the "average" worker doesn't make $30+/hr.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #26
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If that were true, whats the problem?
Public workers can only make what the public can afford to pay.

As far as I have read his numbers are correct btw.

Because everyone is bitching that state/government employees have been getting bigger and better raises then the private sector and i say BULLSHIT! I got bigger and better raises with better benefits in the private sector then I've got and I've seen in state/government sectors.

The public can't afford to fund the Federal Government yet our current administration insists on spending quatrillians of $$$$. I don't hear the private sector or anybody else telling the feds they want to pay more in taxes because of the feds irresponsibility. The Feds need to cut out all the bullshit that is wasting our tax money. If our State and Federal Government would stop it's wasteful spending on programs and shit that don't work we wouldn't be having this problem.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:21 PM   #27
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We spend more than what's necessary in Taxes to support what is NEEDED to run this country efficiently. We are taxed on EVERYTHING, even when we don't see it in print, there is TAX in EVERYTHING.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #28
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Shawn I misunderstood your comments.
I thought you were bitching because you wanted more government money without considering that the governments, both state/federal were broke.

You're correct, the government is a mess.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #29
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Shawn I misunderstood your comments.
I thought you were bitching because you wanted more government money without considering that the governments, both state/federal were broke.

You're correct, the government is a mess.

X3

Govt (federal/state/county/local) is a mess. There's so much waste, and so much good $ dumped into stupidity.

That's why I'm optimistic about people like the new Governors who are trying - even in a small way - to make it better,
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Old February 19th, 2011, 03:34 PM   #30
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LIke I aready said in the other post, I'll post it here too, this is what is really going on. Oh and BTW, I am NOT a Liberal, not ever close, but agree with what is REALLY going on. It's not about the money, at all.

And if this happens in Michigan, I'll be marching also.


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Old February 19th, 2011, 04:08 PM   #31
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The video is loading to slow, but I will also tune into MSNBC every night to get the "other" side of the story and have listened to Mr. Maddow quit a bit.
If this is the same thing she said last night, "Its about busting unions" and making it a Right to Work State, that is also correct. But there is a reason why.

Other states like Indiana have lobbied big business hard to open up shop in their state only to lose them to other states that are Right to work States. And why is this you may ask? Is it because big business doesn't care about worker rights, only to make huge profits on the backs of the poor?

NO!! It's because American business can not afford to open new companies in union states like Michigan in todays world.
First we can start with over regulation and skyrocketing costs to meet government standards. Way to expensive.
Then we can go on to union contracts that can not be met in order for the company to turn a profit.
Wisconsin is having one hell of a time, as well as Michigan, drawing new companies to the state because of union demands.

Shawn, unions of today don't give a damn about you, the working man. Sure they offer you guys great pensions and a good wage, but what they truly care about is power. Power to elect government officials that will give them what they want at all costs so they can get reelected with union help.
Public workers are promised the world because their is no company to put out of business by meeting their demands. Just the never ending flow of tax dollars they feel will not end. Well it's ended.

Mrs. Maddow spouts bullshit every night and never gets called out on it, makes me ill. Or she only gives half the information. People may hate Fox News but they really are pretty fair and balanced. MSNBC is a complete joke. Just check the ratings.


Just finished watching the video.
She is flat out lieing. Wisconsin has a 3+ BILLION dollar hole to get out of. That is why repub's were elected in such a liberal state. To cut spending.
Public sector employees should NOT have a union or any collective bargaining power at all. They do not work for a corporation, they work for us taxpayers.
So let me get this straight, without unions Dems would lose every election? Wonder why?
Unions force dues from every member and fund the dem's whether you like it or not. Sure sounds American to me.

Acorn did nothing wrong? Are you fucking kidding me. They have been caught many many times in voter fraud. Lets not forget the video's of Acorn managers giving advice to undercover pimps on how to run whore houses with underage girls. But they are just fighting for the little guy right.lol
SEIU is a bunch of thugs that beat the shit out of protesters that go against them.
Yes, Karl Rove generates millions of dollars for the repb's. What about George Soros? He's Rove x 100.

This can go on forever.

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Old February 19th, 2011, 05:27 PM   #32
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As far as what unions get compared to "right to work" states is fawked, it's barely fare to compare because even "right to work" states cannot compete with other countries. And if you look at these job looses and plant/manufacturer losses to "right to work states" you'll see the difference in cost of living and poverty.

I'm a blue collar guy making a blue collar wage. And I, in no way (with the current cost of living) am ready to handle cuts, in wages or benefits.

I feel like all this union talk and manufacturing talk about jobs and wages is grouping all of us blue collar guys into one category, and that's not fair. I'm more educated then most, work on the most sophisticated and technical equipment and support not just higher education, but research (and not just medical research, but also Environmental, Engineering, on and on). And on top of that, must keep up to date with the latest technology that effects what I do, and keep up with the continued changes/regulations/restrictions from the EPA, NES, ASHREA, and the Montreal Protocol, and local and State codes. I work for UofM and it's excpected of me to adhere and keep up with these continued challenges. Yet, with all of these changes/challenges I should do it for less.

I think most people are content with grouping all union and blue collar workers into one catagory and think we are overpaid for what is expected from us in our work. When in actuality, some of us are not painting walls, or welding pipe, or laying carpet, or bolting together shit on an assembly line, or blahblahblah.................

Flame me if you fall into one of the "unskilled" skilled labor category, but some of us work our asses off and put our credentials and licenses on the line every day with everything we do, we have standards that must be adhered to or we (personally) have consequences to pay.

My brother is the Fire Chief, my dad is a retired Fire Marshal. I know what they do and think they are already underpaid for what they face everyday. I can't image giving any of our public safety cuts in wages and benefits, but from what my I get from my brother it's probably coming.

If our cost of living was what it was 30 years ago then I have no problem taking cuts. But that's not the case. Our Government has done a great job with NAFTA and Cap and Trade and other bullshit to keep our cost of living outrageously high. If I was paying $1.10 for gas, and didn't pay 6% sales tax, and had lower property taxes, and health care costs overall were lower, and car insurance was lower, and utility bills were lower, and blah blah blah blah

From the Feds to our State, how about they work on getting our cost of living down and bring, and then bring out the cuts they think we deserve. It'd be a little easier to swallow I think.

Stan, you are right, this can go on and on.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #33
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I get the feeling you think I'm criticizing you and how much you get paid for the job you do and thats not the case.
You are the one grouping people together, not me.

You talk about the cost of living and link a video of Maddow talking about raising minimum wage. It is not the unions job to dictate minimum wage. Why argue about it, lets just raise it to $30.00 per hour. Now everyone can live a very comfortable life, no struggling and they can now pay their own healthcare. Sounds great to me.
Lets just put an end to poor people all together.

I will group some people together, progressives are ALL wrong. Every idea they put up has been a failure at some point in history.
Every government program is shit.

As for blue collar workers, "carpet layers" there are unions for them, we are not a union shop.
Our guys make more money at the end of the year, I can beat out ANY union contract that I compete with, the union is a joke.
I sure as hell don't have anything against any "blue collar" worker. As a matter of fact, I respect them much more than a common white collar asshole sitting in an office that has no clue what it means to actually make a product.

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Old February 19th, 2011, 06:44 PM   #34
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Same reason why Devos ran for Governor a few years back, he is a multi billionaire trying to get a 150k job, I truly believe he just wanted the job to create major tax cuts for businesses (Amway cough Amway) in Michigan.

Republicans are just crooks and Democrats are just whine asses who wants to spend everyone's money and take away rights. I don't care for either party they will both fukc up our countries economics one way or another.
And your still and idiot.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 07:29 PM   #35
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Amen.

Michigan is addicted to overspending, and it will be painful to go through withdrawl.

My state taxes will be going up, which I don't like. Funding to my local schools will be reduced, resulting cuts to programs (like the one I'm involved in on a non-paying basis). And I suspect I'm seeing the last of $16.25 ORV permits (I buy 4-5 a year) and any manner of trail maintenance schedule.

But it has to happen. MI can't go on living beyond it's means indefinitely. Revenue is down. The population of net contributors is down while the population of net consumers is up.

Just as he promised, he's applying business principles to running the state instead of political principles. He's choosing to do what's right, rather than what's popular or politically expedient. He's doing things a politician would never do, challenging sacred cows like unions and that 600 lb political gorilla senior citizens.

Just like the Governor of WI. He's doing exactly what he said he would do when he ran - what the majority of WI voters (like MI voters) said they want. It's telling that unions (with direct financial and other support from the DNC and out-of-state agitators) are trying to use bullying, threats, and brute force to overthrow the will of the voters (their employers).

Also note that in Madison, many of the protesters and people occupying the state capitol are actually students from Wisconsin - not union members.

Also note that the media has no issue with posters and signs showing crosshairs on the WI Governor's forehead, but an advertisement with crosshairs over a Congressional district map in AZ made Sarah Palin, the Tea Party movement, and the guilty of putting a hit out on Congresswoman Giffords...

There's been more leadership from the new governor in WI over the past seven weeks than from Obama over the pst two years...
X...er....3? I agree with both you guys.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 07:58 PM   #36
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........................My brother is the Fire Chief, my dad is a retired Fire Marshal. I know what they do and think they are already underpaid for what they face everyday. I can't image giving any of our public safety cuts in wages and benefits, but from what my I get from my brother it's probably coming...........................

It's here.

There currently are several Senate and House proposed Bills to repeal act 312 and gut collective bargaining for fire and police, all while maintaining that it be illegal for them to strike.

My favorites; House Bill #4172 / Senate Bill #7 place a 75-80% cap on medical premiums a government pays for an employee. But state troopers and sergeants would be exempt.

509 units of local government losing revenue sharing will be awesome too. Damn near every dime of that is used for fire and police. If an entity doesn't meet the states undefined "best practices" standard they get none. Give it 9 months to a year and you will see municipalities left and right falling into receivership.



Having set in on, and assisted with public safety labor contracts, I can tell you that (at least in this area) the local government worker is getting F'd bad. Here's an example of one bargaining unit that can't even get qualified people to apply because it's incentives have been hacked away;
  • 1997-MERS defined benefit plan ended, all new employees switched to 401, 456 plans.
  • 2000- 10% increase in employee health care contribution tied to a loss of benefits for spouse on retirement.
  • 2004- Major medical only health plan with $2k deductable. Preventative medicine not included. $50/$50 co pays after deductable met. No health care upon retirement.
  • 2009-2011- Pay freeze
These guys are only making about $50K a year gross and have given up damn near everything to keep their communities from burning down or becoming war zones. Is this really where governments should cut, skimp and screw people?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 10:18 PM   #37
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Hourly rate in my field have dropped about 20% in the past 10 years, cost sharing for medical benefits to the point to where there is hardly any sharing any more, employees pay most of it, pensions are nonexistent. So I have little sympathy for people with public sector jobs that are going through the same thing.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 07:59 AM   #38
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My wife just got a job as a teacher. She is grateful to have a job, her first as a teacher. Best paying job she has ever had. Her coworkers are already starting to complain that they might have to take a small pay cut or pay for some of there insurance. My wife told a few of them that she would gladly pay for more insurance as long as she got to keep her job and they did not understand why. Its simple really. Having a job to go to everyday is better than not having one at all. Being she is the new hire she will be the first to get cut if or when it comes to that. Sucks but its true. The teachers with only a few years left or that have tenor will not take concessions in their wages, even if it means others with young familys will loose their jobs. Seems like a bunch of greedy bullshit to me.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
As far as what unions get compared to "right to work" states is fawked, it's barely fare to compare because even "right to work" states cannot compete with other countries. And if you look at these job looses and plant/manufacturer losses to "right to work states" you'll see the difference in cost of living and poverty.

I'm a blue collar guy making a blue collar wage. And I, in no way (with the current cost of living) am ready to handle cuts, in wages or benefits.

I feel like all this union talk and manufacturing talk about jobs and wages is grouping all of us blue collar guys into one category, and that's not fair. I'm more educated then most, work on the most sophisticated and technical equipment and support not just higher education, but research (and not just medical research, but also Environmental, Engineering, on and on). And on top of that, must keep up to date with the latest technology that effects what I do, and keep up with the continued changes/regulations/restrictions from the EPA, NES, ASHREA, and the Montreal Protocol, and local and State codes. I work for UofM and it's excpected of me to adhere and keep up with these continued challenges. Yet, with all of these changes/challenges I should do it for less.

I think most people are content with grouping all union and blue collar workers into one catagory and think we are overpaid for what is expected from us in our work. When in actuality, some of us are not painting walls, or welding pipe, or laying carpet, or bolting together shit on an assembly line, or blahblahblah.................

Flame me if you fall into one of the "unskilled" skilled labor category, but some of us work our asses off and put our credentials and licenses on the line every day with everything we do, we have standards that must be adhered to or we (personally) have consequences to pay.

My brother is the Fire Chief, my dad is a retired Fire Marshal. I know what they do and think they are already underpaid for what they face everyday. I can't image giving any of our public safety cuts in wages and benefits, but from what my I get from my brother it's probably coming.

If our cost of living was what it was 30 years ago then I have no problem taking cuts. But that's not the case. Our Government has done a great job with NAFTA and Cap and Trade and other bullshit to keep our cost of living outrageously high. If I was paying $1.10 for gas, and didn't pay 6% sales tax, and had lower property taxes, and health care costs overall were lower, and car insurance was lower, and utility bills were lower, and blah blah blah blah

From the Feds to our State, how about they work on getting our cost of living down and bring, and then bring out the cuts they think we deserve. It'd be a little easier to swallow I think.

Stan, you are right, this can go on and on.


Unions Suck Ass almost as much as Obama.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 10:28 AM   #40
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I'm willing to pay a little more and work a little harder to get this state back on track. The only thing I ask for is positive results for my effort.
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