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Old February 16th, 2011, 10:22 AM   #61
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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:58 PM   #62
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Yes. Thats where we differ but thats fine. It would be a boring world if we were all the same.



1. We cant really know what they were thinking when they laid down a set of rules for us to follow. We do change those rules when we see a need to. It isnt an absolute.

2. YOU dont think they deserves to die a horrible death. Some people do. Again its fine to have different opinions. Even if yours is wrong

We dont know if its would be a deternt to those that have yet to commit a crime. If boiling someone to death in a bull would stop 10 people from becoming murders I say it is worth it. You dont? Who do you think those potential victims would agree with? I think the right of good people to live thier lives without being abused/killed trumps the "right" of the inmate to die in a humane method.

3. Just because that is how it currently is does NOT mean it is the way it should be.
1. That's what I was saying. It's up Judges to make that interpretation. NOT US. We do change them, but, for now, the most (common used) severe punishment is lethal injection. I also wouldn't want to be the Judge that has to sentence someone to death in the bronze bull or anything like that.

2. I think they should be punished. That punishment is death. Not torture

I think that a majority of the potential victims would agree with me. That being they haven't been victimized yet. For every 10 guys that are detered there are probably 10 more that wouldn't fear that because they are sick in the head. No matter how much fear you put into an society there will still be stupid and still be demented people. I'd rather be living in a society where our punishment is, at least, more humane then what the demented people would do.

3. I agree. But, at the moment, That IS how it is. So I'm right. .

Also, all you guys are talking about "How it should be". Well, it isn't. There are plenty of people that, as Ryebread suggested, that have gone over this and decided that lethal injection is the best route for punishment.

Do they maybe deserve a more severe punishment? Probably. Will it deter somebody else, I don't think so. A majority of the people on Death row probably would still be there if the Bronze bull was still in use today. I also find it odd that most of you like this idea. It was a tyrant who enjoyed it. Somebody, by today's standards, who would probably be on death row.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 07:38 PM   #63
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Old February 16th, 2011, 08:46 PM   #64
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Old February 17th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #65
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Y
1. We cant really know what they were thinking when they laid down a set of rules for us to follow. We do change those rules when we see a need to. It isnt an absolute.
I just want to point out this is the same reason people use that would like to outlaw all firearms, or limit freedom of speech, or etc.

It's easy to change the rules when it suits your needs, but are you willing to put up with sacrificing principals that might be more valuable to you, because that's the road you travel down when you think like that.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 07:04 AM   #66
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Change the rules to punish the guilty. Yeah thats bad, I forgot.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 07:33 AM   #67
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FEAR, Fear rules the world. Fear rules the prisons. If you really think about it. Step back and take a deep look at it. Think about all of life's situations, Its Fear, Its what rules everything.
If criminals new up front what was in store for them, if and when they thought of the crimes they do, I truly believe they would not think twice and would pass on the crime. We have to make the punishment strong enough to put "fear", back into the minds of the criminals.
My 2 cents.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 07:43 AM   #68
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You try to help them change with hugs and time outs, I will stick to my methods.
nowhere did I suggest they deserved hugs. your assumption that the victim is innocent is startling too. while everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, it's a waste of resources to try the dead... and when paco caps jerome in a turf war neither is an "innocent victim"

as for the Government - are you suggesting they have earned anyone's trust?

go ahead, and shoot someone that you interpret to be committing a life threatening act against you. Hope you can convince a jury - because you too could find yourself on death row - and in your world facing a torturous death sentence.

I look at justice in a more pure form I guess. Justice, and the judicial system is supposed to look at each case with a blind eye - weighing the evidence without prejudice.

And weighing the punishment without prejudice/malice/revengeful intent.

does it always work? hell fucking no. but again, I would rather deal with our judicial system than live under radical islamic / sharia law.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 08:15 AM   #69
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FEAR, Fear rules the world. Fear rules the prisons. If you really think about it. Step back and take a deep look at it. Think about all of life's situations, Its Fear, Its what rules everything.
If criminals new up front what was in store for them, if and when they thought of the crimes they do, I truly believe they would not think twice and would pass on the crime. We have to make the punishment strong enough to put "fear", back into the minds of the criminals.
My 2 cents.
go back and think long and hard on this.

think about the typical gang banger - one that literally has nothing to live for, or to fear. he's already essentially dead to the dreams that most of us have.

if he thought his end was going to be torturous it would just mean that he's even less likely to be caught/surrender. hope he doesn't take any of your loved ones down with him/her.


I already also mentioned the crimes of passion/reaction issue too. I didn't give any examples -but here's one.

You come home, find some animal covered in your daughter's blood. You're not currently carrying, but you make the deliberate (and understandable) action to run to the gun safe with the quick release, pull out your glock and shoot the dirtbag in the crotch - and he bleeds out.

your actions are in the eyes of most jury's (and fathers everywhere) understandable - but technically you have committed premeditated/1st degree murder. by extrapolation, c.k. would suggest that the dead dirtbag was innocent as well

under ck's (and many in this thread's) idea a revengeful and torturous death is in store for you under such a scenario as you have committed 1st degree, premeditated murder.

Part of the reason that our handgun laws are so draconian is to cut down on "crimes of passion excuses" - it takes planning/thought/ time to take the hand gun from your trunk, take the ammunition from a different box in the trunk, load a magazine, take aim and fire.

I don't post this shit solely cause I like to troll for arguments - our Judicial and Legislative mess in this Country is partially a result of slippery slopes created by people thinking they have the absolute answers to every problem.

Again, I don't have the answer to fixing the mess we call our justice system - nobody really does - but I typically caution anyone that speaks in absolutes and/or thinks their thoughts are universal.

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Old February 17th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #70
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There's a big difference between revenge and justice. If all this eye for eye crap was allowed, all we would have is a bunch of blind people.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 12:50 PM   #71
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I just want to point out this is the same reason people use that would like to outlaw all firearms, or limit freedom of speech, or etc.

It's easy to change the rules when it suits your needs, but are you willing to put up with sacrificing principals that might be more valuable to you, because that's the road you travel down when you think like that.
I thought about bringing up this point. It's a good one.

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There's a big difference between revenge and justice. If all this eye for eye crap was allowed, all we would have is a bunch of blind people.
Is that Gandhi? I'm glad I'm not the only one who think Justice and revenge are different things.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #72
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nowhere did I suggest they deserved hugs. your assumption that the victim is innocent is startling too. while everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty, it's a waste of resources to try the dead... and when paco caps jerome in a turf war neither is an "innocent victim"
What about the 5 year old that gets shot in a drive by? What about the 80 year old lady that some dirtbag rapes? What about the 15 year old kid that gets kidnapped by some sick bastard and the parents never find their kid? Yes they are innocent.

You may chose to create a scenario where there are 2 dirtbags. Thats fine. Just because 1 dirtbag takes out another does NOT mean they shooter shouldnt be put down.

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as for the Government - are you suggesting they have earned anyone's trust?
Are you new to our government? You can blindly trust them if you want.

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go ahead, and shoot someone that you interpret to be committing a life threatening act against you. Hope you can convince a jury - because you too could find yourself on death row - and in your world facing a torturous death sentence.
Just 1 more reason the government cant be trusted. Good people have to fear that protecting their family will make them criminals. If someone enters my home I should be able to do anything I decide is appropriate for the situation. I should not have to worry that some lawyer will twist the circumstance to make me the criminal for protecting my family.


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go back and think long and hard on this.

think about the typical gang banger - one that literally has nothing to live for, or to fear. he's already essentially dead to the dreams that most of us have.

if he thought his end was going to be torturous it would just mean that he's even less likely to be caught/surrender. hope he doesn't take any of your loved ones down with him/her.
You can only assume this because we dont do anything that is enough to scare them. Lets try it and if it doesnt work then we can go back to how we do it now. We cant lose anything by trying a few new methods.


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I already also mentioned the crimes of passion/reaction issue too. I didn't give any examples -but here's one.

You come home, find some animal covered in your daughter's blood. You're not currently carrying, but you make the deliberate (and understandable) action to run to the gun safe with the quick release, pull out your glock and shoot the dirtbag in the crotch - and he bleeds out.

your actions are in the eyes of most jury's (and fathers everywhere) understandable - but technically you have committed premeditated/1st degree murder. by extrapolation, c.k. would suggest that the dead dirtbag was innocent as well
How did I suggest the dirtbag would be an innocent? Once you harm another you stop being innocent.
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