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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:30 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepfreak81
Gas station owners make their money on the stuff in the shop, not on the fuel.



This would be nice, but it's the station owners that take the hit, their real income comes from the product in the store on the shelves, not the fuel.
No, don't make the station owners pay for the pumps, the brand of fuel they are selling should pay for them, or be fined. Hell the FED should impose a tax on the oil companies (Exxon, Shell, etc) in order to pay for these pumps to be installed. Of course, they'd pass the tax onto us, the consumers. So one way or another, we're going to pay for anything new.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:32 PM   #42
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Why not subsidize the pumps.. the fuel is subsidized big time to make it halfway affordable.

Complete sham, but what do you expect for an election year.

The cool thing, is they gave it a color. Der mensch like colors for things, makes then cool and new. Oooo, its a yellow gas cap, must be better.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:36 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornfed
Meijer at Lohr Rd and Ann Arbor-Saline is installing an E85 pump.
The Meijer on Carpenter rd Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti already offers, biodiesel, CNG, and i believe E85.



Thing about E85 is that it has a lower BTU rating than gas, so cost goes down, but millage might get worse depending on the vehicle (even if the vehicle is E85 capable)
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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:47 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemanii
What is this minimal profit in dollars? Sorry, but if you want me to feel sorry for the oil companies, it will never happen. Oil companies, insurance companies, and car companies. 3 that will never be money losers, but will whine like they are.
This is exactly why people are where they are in this world. They don't have ANY idea of what is actually going on around them. So, instead of figuring out what is driving the issues around them, they just blame it on someone else.

Exxon made around a 9% profit margin last year. Profit margin is one of the true measures of how a company is performing, NOT total profit. If I had the amount of money wrapped up in a company as big as Exxon, I would be expecting a lot more than 9% margins. There are hundreds of thousands of companies out there that make HUGE profit margins every year, yet no one bothers to bitch and moan about that do they??? Jesus I hate people that refuse to educate themselves about things they don't understand. It is as bad as the moron that wrote the Lansing State Journal touting all sorts of "profit" calculations that were based on 55 gallon barrels of oil. Who can tell me how many gallons are in a barrel of oil??? Worse yet at the people that actually believe we buy our oil in actual barrels. No wonder unemployment is so damned high in this country. I wouldn't want these people working for me either.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 02:50 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothos
E-85 will really become cost efficient once other products capable of being used become available mainstream to ethanol producers. Swale grass, highway grass clippings, corn byproducts, etc... Straight corn ethanol isn't very efficient alone, but ethanol in and of itself ahs great potential to come down in cost.
This I have to agree with. Once the government finally decides to get out of trying to control what private entities can provide for less cost and at higher standards, we will be able to break our foreign oil dependence. There is big money to be made in making things more energy efficient. Let the market work and keep stupid politicians out of it. How in the hell can some idiot with a political science degree make sound decisions on things such as economic policy or energy efficiency? We need a law to ban politicians.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 03:34 PM   #46
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Why is anybody wasting time/dollars on anything other than that water based fuel that was posted on here a few months back?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 03:49 PM   #47
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so how much money got put into her election fund for this
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
Exxon made around a 9% profit margin last year. Profit margin is one of the true measures of how a company is performing, NOT total profit.
You still haven't said the amount. 9% of what?

Careful with the condendsending tone, I might actually take offense. You have no idea where I am in this world, or how much I do know. I can say, I keep asking for figures, and you give me percentages, perhaps you do not know the numbers yourself? I can tell you that a company that the decision makers are making 10 figure incomes is not hurting by any means. Prove me wrong with figures and I will agree with you. The oil companies are making billions, how much they are using to pay themselves cuts into the profit margin, yes. But they are still making it.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemanii
You still haven't said the amount. 9% of what?
Profit margin, the precentage of income over revenue, amounts don't mean much regardless of how big or small.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:44 PM   #50
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84 scrambler and ryebread,

Yes, you are both correct and I was aware of the cost to produce e85 from corn. but as was pointed out other crops like special types of grass produce a far more efficient crop to make e85 out of.

The point of my original statement is this: hydrogen, e85, natural gas, propane, and pretty much any other possible fuel I can think of off the top of my head will either require as much as or more energy than gasoline to produce or be a real pita haxzard to transport or store. This does not even include the fact that the technology doesn't exist right now to make an affordable vehicle to burn some of these fuels.

Right now it e85 is our only viable option to gasoline. With prices of gasoline soaring high it is becoming more and more viable, and more and more common. I welcome its use and look forward to the money that would normally go oversees for oil production staying in the US.

That being said for people who want to run it in their non-flex fuel vehicles I dont recommend it. besides the fuel line issues and the corrosion of the plastic/rubber in the fuel system it is hell on a piston/ring/ cylinder combo that is not intended for it. I have some SAE papers on the subject here someplace. basically what we see is a few different problems the first is corrosion due to the water that ethanol absorbs (same reason you cant pipe it anywhere without specially coated pipes) and high wear rates because of 'washing' ethanol will wash oil off of the cylinder walls and increase wear.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:49 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Why not subsidize the pumps.. the fuel is subsidized big time to make it halfway affordable.

Complete sham, but what do you expect for an election year.

The cool thing, is they gave it a color. Der mensch like colors for things, makes then cool and new. Oooo, its a yellow gas cap, must be better.

Now I haven't looked into it THAT much but I believe the subsidy is actually on the corn itself correct ?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:49 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Why not subsidize the pumps.. the fuel is subsidized big time to make it halfway affordable.

Complete sham, but what do you expect for an election year.

The cool thing, is they gave it a color. Der mensch like colors for things, makes then cool and new. Oooo, its a yellow gas cap, must be better.

Now I haven't looked into it THAT much but I believe the subsidy is actually on the corn itself correct ?
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Old August 29th, 2006, 05:00 PM   #53
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I can't wait for them to start producing M85 I gots me about 180 acres of trees that will work out great for it.
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Old August 29th, 2006, 10:17 PM   #54
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Okay, correct me if I'm wrong again,..............but isnt "dry gas" the stuff we put in our cars to remove water, mostly ethanol base? So why would E85 attract water?
And I don't mean to offend, but I'm a little skeptical about the SAE papers talking about E85 washing rings, when the fuel is dumped into the top of the cylinder (the oil Ring) keeps the oil on the bottom of the cylinder, wouldn't it also keep the E85 on the top of the cylinder. (not to mention, there is combustion in that cycle somewhere, that blows the crap out the exhaust pipe)

I am no means an expert on this, but how much testing has actually been done? Anybody know? Like I said earlier in this thread, My truck has been running fine all summer, with no problems on E85. It still has great compression, and actually starts quicker then it use to. The oil is a little dirtier maybe, but I run synthetic....................I guess if I'm wrong, it will be an expensive test. But for now, everything is fine.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 05:55 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong again,..............but isnt "dry gas" the stuff we put in our cars to remove water, mostly ethanol base? So why would E85 attract water?
And I don't mean to offend, but I'm a little skeptical about the SAE papers talking about E85 washing rings, when the fuel is dumped into the top of the cylinder (the oil Ring) keeps the oil on the bottom of the cylinder, wouldn't it also keep the E85 on the top of the cylinder. (not to mention, there is combustion in that cycle somewhere, that blows the crap out the exhaust pipe)

I am no means an expert on this, but how much testing has actually been done? Anybody know? Like I said earlier in this thread, My truck has been running fine all summer, with no problems on E85. It still has great compression, and actually starts quicker then it use to. The oil is a little dirtier maybe, but I run synthetic....................I guess if I'm wrong, it will be an expensive test. But for now, everything is fine.
Wait for your first 30 degree day. :tonka: Even with your big injectors, I don't think you'll be able to throw enough fuel in your engine to start it up when its below freezing.

when that happens, you'll have plenty of fuel in your cylinder to wash it down and dilute your oil. In Brazil (where cars run off of 100% alcohol), they have a small gasoline tank that they use to start the cars on when it gets cold.

You could do the same in the winter by installing a small second tank and a selector valve; start up and shut down on gasoline, and switch over to E85 after you've run for about 30 seconds. Actually, it should be pretty interesting for you this winter (in a curious, good way).

edit> "dry gas" attracts the water in your tank and mixed with it, keeping "pure" water from freezing in your lines (and in the old days, collecting in the bottom of your carb). Much in the same way "dry gas" will pull water from your fuel, it will attract water from the atmosphere.

Last edited by ScOoTeR; August 30th, 2006 at 05:59 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 06:00 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckupq
I can't wait for them to start producing M85 I gots me about 180 acres of trees that will work out great for it.
Isn't Methanol made from trees?
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Old August 30th, 2006, 06:53 AM   #57
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Ford flareside.

I'm not saying your application wont work; you sound like you have a fairly built up engine. Depending on what hardware you installed you may not have a problem at all. The modifications made to the PCS are not as radical as you think; mostly coatings and stuff. i mean its a piston engine lets face it it has changed in years. Also, I think if you need high octane e85 is a smart alternative. I am just pointing out that the average ford or jeep owner shouldn't go dumping e85 into a vehicle that's not designed for it. it wont always be pretty.

Actually, like scoot says its kinda interesting what your doing......I would like to know how it performs and the mods with some details on setup.

As for the engine testing you were asking about the answer is quite a bit. Thats what I do and we are running quite a few right now so there is some practical data available.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 11:51 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FORD FLARESIDE
Okay, correct me if I'm wrong again,..............but isnt "dry gas" the stuff we put in our cars to remove water, mostly ethanol base? So why would E85 attract water?
And I don't mean to offend, but I'm a little skeptical about the SAE papers talking about E85 washing rings, when the fuel is dumped into the top of the cylinder (the oil Ring) keeps the oil on the bottom of the cylinder, wouldn't it also keep the E85 on the top of the cylinder. (not to mention, there is combustion in that cycle somewhere, that blows the crap out the exhaust pipe)

I am no means an expert on this, but how much testing has actually been done? Anybody know? Like I said earlier in this thread, My truck has been running fine all summer, with no problems on E85. It still has great compression, and actually starts quicker then it use to. The oil is a little dirtier maybe, but I run synthetic....................I guess if I'm wrong, it will be an expensive test. But for now, everything is fine.
Alcohol is hygroscopic. That means it absorbs moisture from the air.

In the tank, yes, alcohol is used once in a while to remove water from your gas. Water is not soluble in gasoline, and won't stay mixed with it. So sitting in your tank it will settle to the bottom of the tank due to the higher density. So, dumping in a thing of fuel line dryer is just dumping in some alcohol. Alcohols have the ability to bond with both soluble and insoluble modules. SO it acts as a bridge that both water and octane/gasoline will stick to. These lets the water be mixed in with the gas, and gets pumped out of the tank and burned.

Many fuels are already 10% ethanol, so general, this isn't much of an issue any more.

When you have a tank thats primarily alcohol to begin with, on an older vented tank, its possible for it to absorb the water out of the air. I'd think it would be more of an issue if it sat for a while.

This is the same principle why scientifically, its about impossible to every get PURE alcohol. Its too difficult to get all the water out of it.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 12:23 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84Scrambler
This is exactly why people are where they are in this world. They don't have ANY idea of what is actually going on around them. So, instead of figuring out what is driving the issues around them, they just blame it on someone else.

Exxon made around a 9% profit margin last year. Profit margin is one of the true measures of how a company is performing, NOT total profit. If I had the amount of money wrapped up in a company as big as Exxon, I would be expecting a lot more than 9% margins. There are hundreds of thousands of companies out there that make HUGE profit margins every year, yet no one bothers to bitch and moan about that do they??? Jesus I hate people that refuse to educate themselves about things they don't understand. It is as bad as the moron that wrote the Lansing State Journal touting all sorts of "profit" calculations that were based on 55 gallon barrels of oil. Who can tell me how many gallons are in a barrel of oil??? Worse yet at the people that actually believe we buy our oil in actual barrels. No wonder unemployment is so damned high in this country. I wouldn't want these people working for me either.
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Old August 30th, 2006, 01:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Icemanii
What is this minimal profit in dollars? Sorry, but if you want me to feel sorry for the oil companies, it will never happen. Oil companies, insurance companies, and car companies. 3 that will never be money losers, but will whine like they are.
define money losing? there are "real" profits/losses" and there are accounting profits/losses.

the true bean counters, as well as savvy stock brokers go for the accounting profit losses. (think amortized depreciation, essentially a paper loss, as the company can continue to pay its bills)

regardless of which type of loss you favor, the fact remains that if the accounting losses continue for an indefinite time, then tru losses occur, and then bankruptcy, and/or closure.

your statement about car companies never being a money loser is an interesting application of the ostritch + head in sand model of thinking.

how soon we forget that the feds had to provide significant assistance to keey the Chrysler group around at all, let alone long enough for them to 'merge' with Daimler. History is full of Car companies, and/or their suppliers being run into the ground.

and, no I'm not advocating anyone feel sorry for any one industry, especially at the expense of another, in fact I even fully acknowledge that the oil companies are doing themselves a dis-service with bad PR to give out such golden parachutes.

again, as for the profit margin of anywhere from 6-9% for big oil, that's definately not very much on a percentage basis. Reduce it much more, and you may find that the big companies have no incentive to produce/distribute here at all... there are a shitton of emerging markets, and demand for petroleum goods/products and raw crude. Most people are also forgetting, that while we have large oil company presence here in the US, already many of the biggest are not legally incorporated here in the US...

Last edited by RyeBread; August 30th, 2006 at 01:07 PM.
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