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Old December 30th, 2010, 05:54 PM   #21
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I believe that if Obamacare goes through our health care system will overload.
The doctors that are caring for their patients will get bogged down with more work. The government will limit how much time they are to spend per patient as to what the doctor gets paid. Overall care for the patient will decrease.
I also believe that there will be shortage of doctors. I read somewhere that 40% of doctors will give up private practice, retire or find a different field of work.
I am with you on the whole obama care thing, against it 100%
With the government into medicaid and medicare the poor and elderly get the short end of it already. How do you think it will be when that system is overloaded with 30 million more people.
Its a lose lose situation for people that require medical help and the people that don't.
So you're OK with rationing health care based on ability to pay.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 05:55 PM   #22
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So you're OK with rationing health care based on ability to pay.
There are programs out there for the needy. There are also the county health departments.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #23
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There are programs out there for the needy. There are also the county health departments.
Yes, but aber suggests that if the 30 million people who for whatever reason lack health insurance got it they would overload the system. The only way to prevent that is to ration it. The current rationing method is by ability to pay. Those that can pay, or that have insurance that pays, get the best care. Those that do not get lesser care through various "programs".

Since the level of care we could provide given unlimited resources exceeds the level of care we can provide with our current resources, some method of rationing is necessary. It could be based on ability to pay like our current system, or based on some other criteria. I'm not saying that one is better than another, but either way it is rationing of health care.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #24
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So you're OK with rationing health care based on ability to pay.
No I don't believe that health care should be rationed. If the government wants to help the needy then so be it, but they should get the same medical treatment as the rest of us.
We need to look at other countries that have socialized medical and see how that is working for them. Canada comes to mind and there health care sucks and costs way too much. They would like to privatize thier healthcare system because it is costing the government to much to maintain it and the people suffer because of it.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #25
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Yes, but aber suggests that if the 30 million people who for whatever reason lack health insurance got it they would overload the system. The only way to prevent that is to ration it. The current rationing method is by ability to pay. Those that can pay, or that have insurance that pays, get the best care. Those that do not get lesser care through various "programs".

Since the level of care we could provide given unlimited resources exceeds the level of care we can provide with our current resources, some method of rationing is necessary. It could be based on ability to pay like our current system, or based on some other criteria. I'm not saying that one is better than another, but either way it is rationing of health care.
It is rationing and the way you put it.... that is what will probably happen. A give and take sorta thing. But if obamacare goes through all of us will feel the ill effects of rationing health care.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 07:04 PM   #26
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No I don't believe that health care should be rationed. If the government wants to help the needy then so be it, but they should get the same medical treatment as the rest of us.
We need to look at other countries that have socialized medical and see how that is working for them. Canada comes to mind and there health care sucks and costs way too much. They would like to privatize thier healthcare system because it is costing the government to much to maintain it and the people suffer because of it.
And yet Canada spend way less than we do, per capita and as a percentage of GDP, but covers a higher percentage of their citizens.

http://www.visualeconomics.com/healt...ld_2010-03-01/
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Old December 30th, 2010, 07:34 PM   #27
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Your stats show that we do pay more per person but we have the best health care available. I have seen first hand the care provided in Canada and I would not want to get real sick there.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 08:31 PM   #28
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Your stats show that we do pay more per person but we have the best health care available. I have seen first hand the care provided in Canada and I would not want to get real sick there.
By what measure are you claiming our health care to be the best? Nearly every measurement I can find puts us at the middle of the pack or worse for industrialized nations.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #29
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By what measure are you claiming our health care to be the best? Nearly every measurement I can find puts us at the middle of the pack or worse for industrialized nations.
Then why do people who can afford it come here to this country for major surgery?
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #30
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Then why do people who can afford it come here to this country for major surgery?
Because we ration health care based on the ability to pay for it. Those people may have to wait their turn in their home country, but can come here and wave a pile of money around and move to the front of the line.

It should also be noted that people from this country go over seas for medical procedures because they can't afford to get them here.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:57 PM   #31
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Because we ration health care based on the ability to pay for it. Those people may have to wait their turn in their home country, but can come here and wave a pile of money around and move to the front of the line.

It should also be noted that people from this country go over seas for medical procedures because they can't afford to get them here.
I pay my fair share of the ration
If we try to force Dr's to work for less pay then you take away the incentive for people to spend 13 years and usually around 350k to become doctors. Also consider the long hours they spend becoming and being a Dr.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 10:21 PM   #32
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I pay my fair share of the ration
If we try to force Dr's to work for less pay then you take away the incentive for people to spend 13 years and usually around 350k to become doctors. Also consider the long hours they spend becoming and being a Dr.
I'm sure I've paid more than my share over the years, but now that I have been diagnosed with something (diabetes) I have a preexisting condition. Since i see frequent job changes in my line of work, and some insurances won't cover preexisting conditions for 1 year, I either have to pay the doctor out of my pocket or go without.

I don't think we should force doctor to work for less pay, at least not directly. Part of the problem seems to be that we do not have enough doctors, so anything that would discourage people from becoming doctors would be a bad thing. But if we do manage to get more people to become doctors it could end up reducing their pay based on supply and demand.

Based on info from these 2 sites:

http://www.geographic.org/country_ra...anks_2009.html
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ountries-make/

there does not seem to be a strong correlation between doctors pay and doctors per capita so there must be other factors at play. Possibly the cost of education here and the liability issues in this country.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 08:48 AM   #33
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In Canada the government out a cap on wages a doctor can earn. See doctors make way too much money and don't need all that money.
That is the way that system works and Obama wants that here also. Wage limits won't happen right away but that will happen.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:11 AM   #34
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I'm sure I've paid more than my share over the years, but now that I have been diagnosed with something (diabetes) I have a preexisting condition. Since i see frequent job changes in my line of work, and some insurances won't cover preexisting conditions for 1 year, I either have to pay the doctor out of my pocket or go without.

I don't think we should force doctor to work for less pay, at least not directly. Part of the problem seems to be that we do not have enough doctors, so anything that would discourage people from becoming doctors would be a bad thing. But if we do manage to get more people to become doctors it could end up reducing their pay based on supply and demand.

Based on info from these 2 sites:

http://www.geographic.org/country_ra...anks_2009.html
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ountries-make/

there does not seem to be a strong correlation between doctors pay and doctors per capita so there must be other factors at play. Possibly the cost of education here and the liability issues in this country.

If you are a type two diabetic you can reverse it. I have done it.
I also don't think the system is perfect but I also don't think (like my grandma used to say) you should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 10:31 AM   #35
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I'm sure I've paid more than my share over the years, but now that I have been diagnosed with something (diabetes) I have a preexisting condition. Since i see frequent job changes in my line of work, and some insurances won't cover preexisting conditions for 1 year, I either have to pay the doctor out of my pocket or go without.

I don't think we should force doctor to work for less pay, at least not directly. Part of the problem seems to be that we do not have enough doctors, so anything that would discourage people from becoming doctors would be a bad thing. But if we do manage to get more people to become doctors it could end up reducing their pay based on supply and demand.

Based on info from these 2 sites:

http://www.geographic.org/country_ra...anks_2009.html
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ountries-make/

there does not seem to be a strong correlation between doctors pay and doctors per capita so there must be other factors at play. Possibly the cost of education here and the liability issues in this country.


The government doesn't owe anybody health care, health insurance, food, clothing, shelter, or any other material thing. That is up to you to provide and not everybody can or will provide on the same level.

To bad
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Old December 31st, 2010, 02:25 PM   #36
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The government doesn't owe anybody health care, health insurance, food, clothing, shelter, or any other material thing. That is up to you to provide and not everybody can or will provide on the same level.

To bad
Thank you for the generic response that had little to do with the discussion at hand.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 06:45 PM   #37
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No, we allow the doctors to get paid to sit down with the patient and family and discuss the treatment options. We let patients and the family decide which treatment is right. We let them decide if they will be treated in a hospital and have their lives stretched out as long as possible or if they will go home to be with their families as much as possible in their final days.
Umm isn't this how it currently works? When my father was diagnosed with cancer three years ago this is how it worked. We also already have a form of death panels as someone said earlier in bcbs. They have denied many of my fathers treatments that have had to be argued and gotten lawyers involved. In his case he is already beating the odds and still strong and otherwise in good health.

This whole topic is irritating and if this was brought to be because it was what the majority truly wanted, then whatever. But it was voted in thanks do deceitfulness and i scratch your back you scratch mine type politics.

Health care needed something done to it but this was not it. They want to save money, then stop giving immigrants benefits that are not even available to unemployed U.s. citizens that actually did something to deserve them. There are a lot of other ways to save money and lower health care but they are all a bunch of little things that have added up into a giant problem and those things will take a lot of time to fix.
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Old December 31st, 2010, 07:12 PM   #38
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So you're OK with rationing health care based on ability to pay.
My opinion on this is that it is not perfect but no system will be. But generally speaking the people with higher earning have usually spent time, money and effort to get there. There is nothing holding anyone back from doing the same. If someone wants it bad enough then they will find away.

When i was 20 and my daughter was born i had no health insurance and i did not want my family to go without. I worked a full time job and about 30-50 hours a week for myself(so i could pay for college and still provide for my family) all while taking care of a family, house, and 18 credits a semester because i wanted better and for my family to not be without. It was not easy at all but in the end my hard work payed off very well, not to mention the pride i felt by doing it myself and not piggybacking off of anyone

When the government starts giving stuff away then it just further adds to the complacency of many and diminishes the drive and desire to be something more or to earn it for themselves.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 12:18 PM   #39
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Thank you for the generic response that had little to do with the discussion at hand.
My bad, I went back and re read what you posted and realized it dosen't say anything. Sorry
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 11:24 PM   #40
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