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Old November 10th, 2010, 10:28 AM   #21
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Our founding fathers certainly did not advocate the level of liberal/progressive/neo-marxist bullshit that has been pushed by our current apologist in chief.

Climatologists of whatever they want to be called these days can't explain previous weather "anomalies" their term for something that doesn't fit their models - yet they want us to continue to fund their work more, and use alarmist rhetoric to attempt to influence public policy.

Is that really much different than a conservative religious movement?

Bottom line, the Planet's climate and day to day weather is far too complex for our feeble attempts to model - in part because we have a very pathetic effort at even monitoring it when you look at the proximity of our sensors vs. the earth's surface model.

Their ratio of sensors to square miles is akin to trying to develop a topographical map using 1940's radar signals bounced back to the moon to develop a "surface model".

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Old November 10th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Nuggets View Post
I can't win. I can vote for socialist douchbags that want to plung this country into massive debt or I can vote for conservative whack jobs that want to force feed me their religious views.
Nobody is forcing anything on you. If you don't like what you see on tv, turn it off. If you don't like what is on the radio turn it off. If you don't believe in the word of God or that this country was founded on Christian principles then I don't know what to say to you.
As Christians we are to tell everybody about Christ and how He died for your and my sins and He is the only way to be saved from a life without God.

Do you believe that a conservative would be worse than a socialist?
A socialist would rule over you and a conservative would give the right to choose for yourself. Just as Christ gives the same choice. You can accept His free gift or refuse it and suffer the consequences. But you can't say you weren't told.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 10:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by howell_jeep View Post
Where did our founding fathers put seperation of church and state? Last time I read the Consitution, it wasn't there.
First off, I'm happy you've read the constitution, all people should.

Research Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists which explain his thoughts on the 1st amendment. You can take the constitution many ways, but if you want to know what it truly was designed to mean, you can read the founding father's thoughts on the subject.

Please come back and add in your thoughts on that.


edit, I'll just post it.


To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
First off, I'm happy you've read the constitution, all people should.

Research Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists which explain his thoughts on the 1st amendment. You can take the constitution many ways, but if you want to know what it truly was designed to mean, you can read the founding father's thoughts on the subject.

Please come back and add in your thoughts on that.


edit, I'll just post it.


To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
Now read the parts you did not highlight, and compare that with what the republican did. Both Jefferson and the republican talk openly about God as public officials. I guess you would have made copies of Jefferson's letter on Jan 2 1802 and posted it in the townhall with the comment "What the hell is going on, Jefferson's talks about praying, God, creator of man...omg"
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #25
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Now read the parts you did not highlight, and compare that with what the republican did. Both Jefferson and the republican talk openly about God as public officials. I guess you would have made copies of Jefferson's letter on Jan 2 1802 and posted it in the townhall with the comment "What the hell is going on, Jefferson's talks about praying, God, creator of man...omg"

Talking about God? That is fine, nothing wrong with that. Prayer? Nothing wrong with that.

Now making LEGISLATIVE DECISIONS BASED ON THE BIBLE? I have a big problem with that.


What happens if the next guy brings up a harry potter book and talks about new laws that should be made in case goblins take over the world..
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:06 AM   #26
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* I've never read a harry potter book, so I don't know if it includes goblins.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #27
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i fucking love goblins
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Nobody is forcing anything on you. If you don't like what you see on tv, turn it off. If you don't like what is on the radio turn it off. If you don't believe in the word of God or that this country was founded on Christian principles then I don't know what to say to you.
As Christians we are to tell everybody about Christ and how He died for your and my sins and He is the only way to be saved from a life without God.

Do you believe that a conservative would be worse than a socialist?
A socialist would rule over you and a conservative would give the right to choose for yourself. Just as Christ gives the same choice. You can accept His free gift or refuse it and suffer the consequences. But you can't say you weren't told.
If laws are made based on religious beliefs it is being forced on all of us.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
First off, I'm happy you've read the constitution, all people should.

Research Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists which explain his thoughts on the 1st amendment. You can take the constitution many ways, but if you want to know what it truly was designed to mean, you can read the founding father's thoughts on the subject.

Please come back and add in your thoughts on that.


edit, I'll just post it.


To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
When did that letter get tacked onto the end of the constitution? The answer is never.

The constitution is the legally binding document. Jefferson was not the only man who wrote and ratified the constitution and his opinion of the role of religion was not written into the document. The words that were written and ratified are this....

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of...."

Is talking about God, even in congress, not "the free exercise there of" ?

What Jefferson is saying in his letter is that to worship and to believe in God is a natural right of all men and that government has no opinion in the practice or lack of practice in regard to these things. That does not mean that those in congress or anywhere else cannot envoke their religious belief with regard to their politics. It means that they most certainly DO have that right and can exercise it at will and without punishment by the government.

The 1st Amendment, with regard to religion, means nothing more than this... The Federal Government cannot establish an official religion for the country or prohibit anyone from exercising their right to worship. THAT'S IT!

Perhaps, your lack of faith has clouded your ability to think objectively on the subject.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Talking about God? That is fine, nothing wrong with that. Prayer? Nothing wrong with that.

Now making LEGISLATIVE DECISIONS BASED ON THE BIBLE? I have a big problem with that.
what makes you think that countless legislative, judicial and executive branch politicians and bureaucrats have not, and do not already do that? or based upon their preferred religious tome?

simply because they have not openly cited such does not mean that their decision making processes has not been based upon, or influenced by those beliefs.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #31
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what makes you think that countless legislative, judicial and executive branch politicians and bureaucrats have not, and do not already do that? or based upon their preferred religious tome?

simply because they have not openly cited such does not mean that their decision making processes has not been based upon, or influenced by those beliefs.

Sure, religion plays a lot into some peoples lives, and I'm sure that alters their voting, but to openly read the bible and state that is why you feel this way about a law shouldn't be happening.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:35 AM   #32
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Nobody is forcing anything on you. If you don't like what you see on tv, turn it off. If you don't like what is on the radio turn it off. If you don't believe in the word of God or that this country was founded on Christian principles then I don't know what to say to you.
As Christians we are to tell everybody about Christ and how He died for your and my sins and He is the only way to be saved from a life without God.
Do you believe that a conservative would be worse than a socialist?
A socialist would rule over you and a conservative would give the right to choose for yourself. Just as Christ gives the same choice. You can accept His free gift or refuse it and suffer the consequences. But you can't say you weren't told.
It's people like me who keep people like you from enacting their personal religious agenda as law. That is exactly what the founding fathers wanted as a way to keep either (or all) religious views in check. This is a country founded on religious freedom, not by Christians and exclusively for Christians. Could you imagine would it would be like if the Westboro Baptist church were in a place of goverment authority?

I'm not the kind of person who covers their ears when people start talking about religion but instead I join in and give my views. As a Diest, we are to challenge conventional religious thinking when that thinking is narcissistic.

Christ could not have died for our sins because he was just a little chunk of God (according to modern christianity). I'm confused because I can't go to heaven unless I believe in Jesus. I believe in (a) God but if God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are the same entity, wouldn't I go to heaven just for believing in God? Because that way I would be believing in Jesus by default, or does he (it?) want me to use code words to distinquish which part of him I believe in?

The image of God was created as a reflection of man. If not, why does God have a penis since all references refer to God as "Him"?

Last edited by Nuggets; November 10th, 2010 at 11:39 AM.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:36 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
First off, I'm happy you've read the constitution, all people should.

Research Jefferson's letter to the Danbury baptists which explain his thoughts on the 1st amendment. You can take the constitution many ways, but if you want to know what it truly was designed to mean, you can read the founding father's thoughts on the subject.

Please come back and add in your thoughts on that.


edit, I'll just post it.


To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.
What he is talking about here is that the State cannot tell anybody how or what to do according to religion. Christianity has a place in the state and works within government. The constitution was founded on Christian principles. As the founders themselves believed in God and wrote the constitution with Our Lord in mind. When they dated the constitution it said In The Year Of Our Lord.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:38 AM   #34
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If laws are made based on religious beliefs it is being forced on all of us.
The ten commandments for starters is the basis of our laws.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:38 AM   #35
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Sure, religion plays a lot into some peoples lives, and I'm sure that alters their voting, but to openly read the bible and state that is why you feel this way about a law shouldn't be happening.
there are lots and lots of things that shouldn't be happening in every aspect of our Nation's future outlook. From economics, to demographics, to you name it.

the Left and the Right appear to be dead set on each digging their respective heels in and blamestorming against the other side for the next two years while our economy implodes, our schools, firehalls and police stations close, jobs off-shore, doctors sell out their practices and either specialize, or become "employees" of mega-conglomerates, and more and more kids end up in divided homes, and inflation erodes any chance of a recovery.

sorry if I trivialize this one (I should mention I did not watch the youtube video)
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #36
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The ten commandments for starters is the basis of our laws.
Proof?
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #37
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When did that letter get tacked onto the end of the constitution? The answer is never.

The constitution is the legally binding document. Jefferson was not the only man who wrote and ratified the constitution and his opinion of the role of religion was not written into the document. The words that were written and ratified are this....

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise there of...."

Is talking about God, even in congress, not "the free exercise there of" ?

What Jefferson is saying in his letter is that to worship and to believe in God is a natural right of all men and that government has no opinion in the practice or lack of practice in regard to these things. That does not mean that those in congress or anywhere else cannot envoke their religious belief with regard to their politics. It means that they most certainly DO have that right and can exercise it at will and without punishment by the government.

The 1st Amendment, with regard to religion, means nothing more than this... The Federal Government cannot establish an official religion for the country or prohibit anyone from exercising their right to worship. THAT'S IT!

Perhaps, your lack of faith has clouded your ability to think objectively on the subject.
Supreme Court case: Lemon vs Kurtzman

"For a law to be considered constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, the law must have a legitimate secular purpose, must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and must not result in an excessive entanglement of government and religion."

Read up on Clause 3.
Excessive government entanglement in religion = Reading a bible during a session and making a law because of the bibles statements.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:45 AM   #38
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What he is talking about here is that the State cannot tell anybody how or what to do according to religion. Christianity has a place in the state and works within government. The constitution was founded on Christian principles. As the founders themselves believed in God and wrote the constitution with Our Lord in mind. When they dated the constitution it said In The Year Of Our Lord.
The Constitution has so many Christian values that Jesus Christ is not mentioned at all. This country was founded on value of religious freedom, not the values of a single faith. Most faiths have similar values as Christianity and many are older so you can't say the bible is the first religious document that states basic behaviour values within society.

Since you are not a free thinker, I would suggest you drink the kool-aid.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:45 AM   #39
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If laws are made based on religious beliefs it is being forced on all of us.
Laws are made based on the opinions of what our lawmakers deem to be right. How do any of them form an opinion? What is the difference if the opinion is based on a religious view or an atheist view? Your job as an American is to vote for the person you feel will best represent your opinion.

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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Sure, religion plays a lot into some peoples lives, and I'm sure that alters their voting, but to openly read the bible and state that is why you feel this way about a law shouldn't be happening.
I also don't feel this was a very smart move on his part. Wrong? Not so much, intelligent? Not so much either. Religion is all over our government (at least it used to be). Look at your money, the engravings in our public building etc.

Most people make the mistake of believing that separation of Church and State meant no religion in government. It was actually a prohibitive statement aimed at preventing the Government from declaring any religion a Governmental religion, as was the custom in Europe. Funny thing is...you couldn't vote in this country if you were a Catholic for a very very long time.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #40
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Lemon vs Kurtzman

Read up on Clause 3.

Excessive government entanglement in religion = Reading a bible during a session and making a law because of the bibles statements.

Quote:
Later developments

Lemon's future is somewhat uncertain. Sustained criticism by conservative Justices such as Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas,[2] lack of a clear reaffirmation of the central tenets of Lemon over the years since the 1980s, and inconsistent application in major Establishment Clause cases has led some legal commentators and lower court judges to believe that Lemon's days are numbered, and that the Court has implicitly left the decision of whether to apply the test in a specific case up to lower courts.[citation needed] This has resulted in a patchwork pattern of enforcement in circuit courts across the nation; while some courts apply Lemon in all or most cases, others apply it in few or none.[citation needed] The Supreme Court itself has applied the Lemon test as recently as 2000 in Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe.
most certainly this will continue to be litgated and debated - in part because the stereotypical Christian White Family is gradually becoming a smaller part of our Nation's demographics.

religions, and anti-religions of all types are all jockeying for a greater influence on our Nation's politics and policies.
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