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Old November 8th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #1
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Default 2010 silverado performance upgrades

im looking to give my 2010 silverado 5.3 a little more power and mpg... just looking for some input on cold air intakes, exhaust and power programers? has any one had any expierence with any of the three? which are the best option? thanks for any and all input.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 12:27 PM   #2
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for power i know the 5.3's benefit ALOT from a cam swap. I've heard like 75 hp from the right cam swap and 100 hp with the cam and a programmer. but if just want basic bolt on type stuff the a cold air and a good exhaust kit with some high flow cats with increase hp and mpg. i would try hp tuners or diablo for a programmer and yes that can increase mpg as well as hp.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #3
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efi live, wait4mepreformance, pcmforless, get a custom tune way better then any chips out there.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 12:45 PM   #4
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efi live can be very tricky though if your not payin attention to everything your adjusting. and its pointless to do with out a dyno also.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:28 PM   #5
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efi live can be very tricky though if your not payin attention to everything your adjusting. and its pointless to do with out a dyno also.
I'd be willing to bet that over 90% of the people who own efi live or similar software have no idea what they are doing.

Get a mail order "tune" from a reputable company and that is what it is. If you want more power then buy a different truck.

The new engines have a lot of things going on with them that make cam swaps more complicated, AFM lifters and VVT are the most notable.

You need an adjusted calibratioin if you swap a cam shaft. You'll probably have $1500-2k into a cam swap if you chose to go that route.

But, if you want more power, buy a new truck with a 6.2L and start there.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:57 PM   #6
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they do make bigger cams for those actually that dont need tuning done. of course when you do swaps like that tunes do help but are not needed. and you'll only have about 400-500$ for the cam and a couple gaskets and the time it takes into a cam swap. we just did one at my shop on a 5.3l. check into a little but a cam swap isnt that diff. if you have some mechanical ability. the benifit to the newer cars is you take off the rockers and roll the motor around 1 rev and the lifters press up and stay there so you can pull the cam and put in a new one with out taking off the intake and stuff. comp makes good aftermarket cams for vvt motors also. good luck whatever you end up doing.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 02:38 PM   #7
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they do make bigger cams for those actually that dont need tuning done.
Please enlighten me as to how you can drastically change the airflow (which "power" is created from) into the engine and NOT need a calibration to get back to within a few percent of the safe operating range the OEM calibration is adjusted for?
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Old November 16th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #8
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The "oem calibration" isnt a set cal. Your o2 sensors read and mass airflow reads along with many other sensors to adjust fuel all the time. if you look at comp cams book they tell you that some are runable without a tuner. check it out sometime. if you dont trust me 95geo call the engine shop that i work and ask us cause we do this stuff all time. and you can can drastically change airflow and not create power cause you need more then just airflow to make power. you can kill power by adding to much airflow to it just to enlighten you some. thanks though.....

Last edited by mprmn08; November 16th, 2010 at 08:34 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #9
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The "oem calibration" isnt a set cal. Your o2 sensors read and mass airflow reads along with many other sensors to adjust fuel all the time. if you look at comp cams book they tell you that some are runable without a tuner. check it out sometime. if you dont trust me 95geo call the engine shop that i work and ask us cause we do this stuff all time. and you can can drastically change airflow and not create power cause you need more then just airflow to make power. you can kill power by adding to much airflow to it just to enlighten you some. thanks though.....
Quoted for posterity!

What is the name of this shop?

And how long have you been doing work on vehicles?
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:14 AM   #10
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for power i know the 5.3's benefit ALOT from a cam swap. I've heard like 75 hp from the right cam swap and 100 hp with the cam and a programmer.
Hold on for just one moment. How do you KNOW "the 5.3's benefit ALOT from a cam swap" then follow it with you've HEARD "like 75 hp from the right cam swap and 100 hp with the cam and a programmer."

Hearing something does not make it valid - i.e. "I KNOW that girl is a whore 'cause I HEARD she sleeps with lots of guys." With horsepower claims, it is especially tough to weed out the hype. Companies will advertise inflated numbers or include other mods that are not highlighted. Also, you plunk down $500 for a cam swap in your 5.3, you'll feel like you have to justify the money you spent by repeating or inflating the horsepower claims and you may even create a few of your own tall tales: "that there cam gives me 100 hp more and increased my fuel economy by 5 mpg!". Look on any diesel site, those guys are the masters of hype.


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The "oem calibration" isnt a set cal. Your o2 sensors read and mass airflow reads along with many other sensors to adjust fuel all the time. if you look at comp cams book they tell you that some are runable without a tuner. check it out sometime. if you dont trust me 95geo call the engine shop that i work and ask us cause we do this stuff all time. and you can can drastically change airflow and not create power cause you need more then just airflow to make power. you can kill power by adding to much airflow to it just to enlighten you some. thanks though.....
I can see you have a rudimentary understanding of closed-loop fuel control, but don't know enough yet to offer the kind of information you're trying to.

Answer this one question:
If this is true:
Quote:
Your o2 sensors read and mass airflow reads along with many other sensors to adjust fuel all the time
How does your vehicle start in the morning while the O2 sensors are too cold to read accurately?

I'm interested to see what you think.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 11:42 AM   #11
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I can see you have a rudimentary understanding of closed-loop fuel control, but don't know enough yet to offer the kind of information you're trying to.

Answer this one question:
If this is true:

How does your vehicle start in the morning while the O2 sensors are too cold to read accurately?

I'm interested to see what you think.
and WOT?

I'm hoping your shop is doing springs and pushrods on those 75hp cams in the 5.3s....$400 for a cam, pushrods, springs, retainers, gaskets and labor, sounds like a good deal to me
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Old November 17th, 2010, 12:28 PM   #12
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and WOT?
You're not trying to imply that a closed loop control system uses a speed density based calibration for WOT operation, are you?!
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Old November 17th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #13
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SCOTTER: Well dont all stock vehicles benefit from a better cam? so i know that...and i've heard around 75-100 CAN be gained from it. companies do inflate numbers that is why i didnt i say i know it will gain X amount of hp

I never said I did one in MY 5.3 so im not "plunking" down any numbers and comp offers a cam for a vvt 5.7 for 448$ which is within my range of 400-500$ for it and i said doing it yourself not paying us to do it HAGGER. and why do you MIGHT need new springs depending on how big you go with a cam but y pushrods and retainers and locks? and i also said in that for 400-500 for the cam plus misc. gaskets and some time to do it.

what exactly does starting up in the morning have to do with how much your ecm can somewhat calibrate itself to keep your engine running with the correct a.f. ratio? YOU mean to tell me that your ecm only pluses a certain amout of mS no matter what and cannot adjust anything at all? if so that means you cant do anymods to your vehicle without custom tuning because you will be runnin on the edge of a to lean condition with out it?
Thats why you dont rip on a motor first thing until it warms up due to the fact that your o2's are not reading correctly.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #14
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oh and hears a cam that comp offers for that motor
HYDRAULIC ROLLER-Substantial power
and torque gains across the power range. Hyd. Hyd. 1600 to 6700 156-421-13 266PHR14 .500 .500 114

and another if you want a little bigger.

HYDRAULIC ROLLER − Excellent
responsiveness and low end torque with
good power gains.
Hyd. Hyd. 1300 to 6500 156-400-137 263PHR14 .556 .568 114

if you look on there site it does label next to some that say works well with a programmer. notice those ones dont. ask comp they'll tell you that you dont need one for those cams.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #15
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SCOTTER: Well dont all stock vehicles benefit from a better cam? so i know that...and i've heard around 75-100 CAN be gained from it. companies do inflate numbers that is why i didnt i say i know it will gain X amount of hp

I never said I did one in MY 5.3 so im not "plunking" down any numbers and comp offers a cam for a vvt 5.7 for 448$ which is within my range of 400-500$ for it and i said doing it yourself not paying us to do it HAGGER. and why do you MIGHT need new springs depending on how big you go with a cam but y pushrods and retainers and locks? and i also said in that for 400-500 for the cam plus misc. gaskets and some time to do it.

what exactly does starting up in the morning have to do with how much your ecm can somewhat calibrate itself to keep your engine running with the correct a.f. ratio? YOU mean to tell me that your ecm only pluses a certain amout of mS no matter what and cannot adjust anything at all? if so that means you cant do anymods to your vehicle without custom tuning because you will be runnin on the edge of a to lean condition with out it?
Thats why you dont rip on a motor first thing until it warms up due to the fact that your o2's are not reading correctly.
You told us this:
Quote:
The "oem calibration" isnt a set cal. Your o2 sensors read and mass airflow reads along with many other sensors to adjust fuel all the time. if you look at comp cams book they tell you that some are runable without a tuner. check it out sometime. if you dont trust me 95geo call the engine shop that i work and ask us cause we do this stuff all time. and you can can drastically change airflow and not create power cause you need more then just airflow to make power. you can kill power by adding to much airflow to it just to enlighten you some. thanks though.....
Now, I will try to explain this in the best way I can:

The "OEM Calibration", as you refer to it, IS a set calibration. Fuelling is defined in base tables for many different operating conditions - mainly when you're in open loop, or not using the O2 controllers to adjust back to stoichiometry. The base tables are calibrated to get you close to stoich on a nominal system, and you rely on feedback control from the O2 sensors to get you the rest of the way.

So, technically, in an uneducated way, one might assume the O2 sensors are responsible for all the fuelling duties. That person would be wrong, of course. That's why I asked about what you thought controlled the fuel at engine start - it isn't the O2 sensors - they have heaters that:
1. must first wait until the dewpoint is overcome before they turn on;
2. are necessary to warm the O2 sensor up enough to get an accurate reading.
So, during a start, the engine runs off of base open loop fuel tables because you can't rely on a cold sensor for feedback - and ( I will not elaborate here) you cannot control to anything other than soichiometry with a switching O2 sensor.

When we take what you said into account, you cannot just throw a bigger camshaft in and rely on feedback control to pick up the slack. There are limits designed into the control and you will most likely run into the rich limit if you do not adjust other variables, such as fuel pressure or injectors ( on the mechanical side) or base fuel tables ( on the software/calibration side).
When you go WOT, you go directly from the open loop power enrichment tables and not the O2 sensor. So, if you increase your VE enough to make more power, you cannot take full advantage of it because you will not be commanding enough fuel to go richer than stoich.

Here's a question for you - why does going rich of stoichiometry produce more power than running at stoich? (assuming you know stoichiometry means running an AFR that allows the necessary ratio of air/fuel to combust all of the fuel) Try to first answer without an internet search engine.

Also, another thing to consider, that the computer cannot comprehend is the change in valve overlap (resulting in increased residual mass fraction and effective compression ratio). Something that claims 75 hp improvement over stock is going to have a decent amount of overlap and, accordingly, will lose overall combustion efficiency by lowering the effective compression ratio.
So, you may be taking more air into the cylinder, but the amount of energy you can extract from the charge is reduced because you're not running the same CR any longer.

As far as this statement goes:
Quote:
Thats why you dont rip on a motor first thing until it warms up due to the fact that your o2's are not reading correctly
It makes me think you're a porter or do oil changes in the shop and are trying to learn the trade from the guys that do the real work. That is commendable, but you should refrain from propagating misinformation - you know enough of the buzzwords to B.S. the laymen, but shouldn't be surprised when the experts call you out.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 08:38 PM   #16
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im looking to give my 2010 silverado 5.3 a little more power and mpg... just looking for some input on cold air intakes, exhaust and power programers? has any one had any expierence with any of the three? which are the best option? thanks for any and all input.
To answer your question - any CAI that is worthwhile will include a housing to block hot underhood air from being used.

Borla makes a pretty good cat-back that sounds good, but the $/hp ratio sucks.

I'm not a huge fan of programmers, but to be honest, I have not looked at what is available for the 5.3.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:56 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
You told us this:


Now, I will try to explain this in the best way I can:

The "OEM Calibration", as you refer to it, IS a set calibration. Fuelling is defined in base tables for many different operating conditions - mainly when you're in open loop, or not using the O2 controllers to adjust back to stoichiometry. The base tables are calibrated to get you close to stoich on a nominal system, and you rely on feedback control from the O2 sensors to get you the rest of the way.

So, technically, in an uneducated way, one might assume the O2 sensors are responsible for all the fuelling duties. That person would be wrong, of course. That's why I asked about what you thought controlled the fuel at engine start - it isn't the O2 sensors - they have heaters that:
1. must first wait until the dewpoint is overcome before they turn on;
2. are necessary to warm the O2 sensor up enough to get an accurate reading.
So, during a start, the engine runs off of base open loop fuel tables because you can't rely on a cold sensor for feedback - and ( I will not elaborate here) you cannot control to anything other than soichiometry with a switching O2 sensor.

When we take what you said into account, you cannot just throw a bigger camshaft in and rely on feedback control to pick up the slack. There are limits designed into the control and you will most likely run into the rich limit if you do not adjust other variables, such as fuel pressure or injectors ( on the mechanical side) or base fuel tables ( on the software/calibration side).
When you go WOT, you go directly from the open loop power enrichment tables and not the O2 sensor. So, if you increase your VE enough to make more power, you cannot take full advantage of it because you will not be commanding enough fuel to go richer than stoich.

Here's a question for you - why does going rich of stoichiometry produce more power than running at stoich? (assuming you know stoichiometry means running an AFR that allows the necessary ratio of air/fuel to combust all of the fuel) Try to first answer without an internet search engine.

Also, another thing to consider, that the computer cannot comprehend is the change in valve overlap (resulting in increased residual mass fraction and effective compression ratio). Something that claims 75 hp improvement over stock is going to have a decent amount of overlap and, accordingly, will lose overall combustion efficiency by lowering the effective compression ratio.
So, you may be taking more air into the cylinder, but the amount of energy you can extract from the charge is reduced because you're not running the same CR any longer.

As far as this statement goes:


It makes me think you're a porter or do oil changes in the shop and are trying to learn the trade from the guys that do the real work. That is commendable, but you should refrain from propagating misinformation - you know enough of the buzzwords to B.S. the laymen, but shouldn't be surprised when the experts call you out.
I totally agree depending on how much bigger cam you are installing. Slightly more lift than stock with the same LSA can be ran on stock fuel injectors and tune, however when you put a more aggressive cam in you run into a lot of variables as stated above, that why a lot of people are using Carburetors on LS series motors with big cams and making big power.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 06:04 AM   #18
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I totally agree depending on how much bigger cam you are installing. Slightly more lift than stock with the same LSA can be ran on stock fuel injectors and tune, however when you put a more aggressive cam in you run into a lot of variables as stated above, that why a lot of people are using Carburetors on LS series motors with big cams and making big power.
Most stock injectors that are sized properly for their oem power output (specifically the gen 3 and gen 4 sbc) are good for an additional 100hp or so before you start getting too high in the duty cycle.

A lot of people run carbs because the single plane intake manifolds have some great flow numbers compared to the oem car or truck intakes. The other reason is many people are afraid of fuel injection systems and don't understand them well enough to not ditch them when they get tunnel vision of the 1/4 mile track and E.T.

I have no idea why anyone would swap a cam and then use the factory calibration. The oem operating parameters are extremely safe and they leave a lot on the table. The first thing that should be done when beginning the search for power is to start with an aftermarket calibration to see if that will get you what you are after before having to go to hard parts.

But if the statement of "you don't need a tune" was referencing the time between the cam swap and the appt at the tuners then I'd have to agree. You can get away with running the factory parameters for a short time if that is what it takes. The one thing to remember, it could be running worse and making less power than before the cam swap.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #19
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first off let me start be start off by correcting you on something scooter....i do oil changes and am learing from others??? well just to let you know i have 2 associates degrees in automotive. 1 in automotive repair and 1 in high performance automotive. I've been wrenchin on cars my whole life, been BUILDING AND MACHINING engines at my current shop for 2 years (which is not a oil change place also) and pit for multiple guys at the strip for many years....now that we have that straight in no way did i say your gonna get 75 hp from alone and no other mods and i didnt say that you should run with a recal to your stock tunes i merely said it could be done without mods to your stock tune and of course your not gonna benefit 100% unless you do a tune. i do know about base fuel tables that try and put you at stoich (and yes i know what means) but in a wot situation it does run richer do to that being a "performace" situation and most of those cams that can run without a custom tune are the same L.S.A. (lobe seperation angle incase you were wondering) therefore you wont overscavenge and put raw fuel out the exhaust. and i know the o2 isnt resposible for the fueling but it tells the computer were the af is at so it can adjust some. your injectors will change pulse width some based on a o2 reading. have you ever hooked up a laptop to an injection system with a stock tune and data logged it while running? I've tuned a helped tune along with seen live stock data on multiple "stock" efi systems.

let me ask you something.....what is your background in all this? some of this makes me think you have an idea what your doing but i also think you just read alot of hotrod mag. and car and driver. and you belive what they say in there is all true.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #20
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mprmn08, do you by chance know wmurray23?

Also, did your associate's degrees require any typing or grammar classes?
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