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Old November 9th, 2010, 07:48 AM   #21
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When I narrowed the 9" for my Honda, I put everything together, mounted rims, and made sure the rims where parallel as I tacked everything in place.




To the nay sayers about butt welding. Front axle narrowed so one axle shaft can be used for either side (and so it fit the car better). I also cut the center section of the rear axle and rotated it to reduce my pinion angle. I beat the living crap out of this car and never had any issues with the axle welds.


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Old November 9th, 2010, 08:15 AM   #22
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If you guys (specifically people that have done it, not people that have a friends uncles cousins brother that has done it) were me what should I do here? I have 2 hp 60's and one is bent so it is good for nothing except a complete retube should I use them like planned or should I do a 14b that I will have to buy? with the 60's I am planning 35 spline hardened shafts and lockers front and rear. I haven't wheeled either so I am trying to find as many opinions as possible and try to make an educated decision. I have spoke to tab, pat and other friends around here that are very knowledgable and none have said a bad thing about butt welding tubes so I am going to do that. I just am torn on my rear axle. I am planning on 37" radials that I can still run a bit on the street but you all know how that goes, I can't promise I won't end up with 40's on it eventually.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 08:37 AM   #23
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I don't have alot of information on your type of conversion. The only advise I can give is about the actual fab. When I did mine, I had some issues with porosity even though I cleaned the snot out of everything. I ended up cleaing the axle housing out with oven cleaner and a steam Jenny. That seemed to do the trick. If I had to do it over, I would TIG the root pass to hedge my bets against leaks but since you are an experienced welder, you will be pretty good at getting it right the first time.

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Old November 9th, 2010, 08:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by 95geo View Post
Your idea for a "jig" should work.

Skooterbuilt has no business giving advice on anything except cross dressing. When you move past your OCD/add fueled part slinging and get a couple months of 4x4 use out of your parts you can start giving advice on ujoints tires and air cleaners.

If you plan on using a Dana 60 beyond what a Dana 44 would live with then you should think again about a HP 60 in the rear. It might not happen right away but at some point you'll probably have issues with it.

For what it's worth, I butt welded my dads rear axle tubes about 18" from the center section. It's 3.125x.5625" wall dom. Chamfered about 1/4" at 45 degrees on both sides and then triple pass welded them with TIG. Standard ER70S6 filler and about 150 amps. It hasn't broken yet but when it does I'll post pictures of the shitty welds for the web-fabricators to nit-pick. I wouldn't jump the vehicle repeatedly with that style of modification but for what he'll do with it, I'm sure it'll be fine.
I know exactly what Im taking about, cause I just had this done to my rear axle
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Old November 9th, 2010, 09:41 AM   #25
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I know exactly what Im taking about, cause I just had this done to my rear axle
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Old November 9th, 2010, 12:03 PM   #26
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Axle aligning pucks - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Just in case these will work for you
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Old November 9th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #27
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If you guys (specifically people that have done it, not people that have a friends uncles cousins brother that has done it) were me what should I do here? I have 2 hp 60's and one is bent so it is good for nothing except a complete retube should I use them like planned or should I do a 14b that I will have to buy? with the 60's I am planning 35 spline hardened shafts and lockers front and rear. I haven't wheeled either so I am trying to find as many opinions as possible and try to make an educated decision. I have spoke to tab, pat and other friends around here that are very knowledgable and none have said a bad thing about butt welding tubes so I am going to do that. I just am torn on my rear axle. I am planning on 37" radials that I can still run a bit on the street but you all know how that goes, I can't promise I won't end up with 40's on it eventually.
Sorry I gave you any input. If you want a high pinion, go for a True Hi-9. And yes, I have experience.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #28
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Sorry I gave you any input. If you want a high pinion, go for a True Hi-9. And yes, I have experience.
I never said you weren't knowledgable! I definately was not directing that towards you at all! I wasn't aiming that towards anyone that has posted in this thread, just to keep the rif-raf out. I just know a question like 60 or 14b brings out a lot of people that haven't actually ran them. I had my mind all made up as to what I was going to do until I posted this thread. I am planning on taking a lot of time and spending a lot of money on these, I don't want to do it wrong and regret it in the future. Most people on gl seem to be going 14b but I have people around here telling me that I will never break my hp 60. I just want to make the most educated decision that I can.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 04:32 PM   #29
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use the best high pinion for the front and I would use a 14bolt for the rear. The hp60 when used in the rear WILL give you problems at some point, a year later or the first time out. Plus the 14bolt is a lot cheaper to build. You can weld it if you want or a detroit is around $400. Disc brakes are easy on both but you won't need to upgrade the shafts on the 14b but you'll need to bore the spindles to get 35spl shafts in the 60. With your welding skills you will be just fine butt welding it. I wouldn't recommend that method to many people on here to do themselves though
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Old November 9th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #30
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use the best high pinion for the front and I would use a 14bolt for the rear. The hp60 when used in the rear WILL give you problems at some point, a year later or the first time out. Plus the 14bolt is a lot cheaper to build. You can weld it if you want or a detroit is around $400. Disc brakes are easy on both but you won't need to upgrade the shafts on the 14b but you'll need to bore the spindles to get 35spl shafts in the 60. With your welding skills you will be just fine butt welding it. I wouldn't recommend that method to many people on here to do themselves though
I didn't realize I could get away with running stock shafts in a 14b, that is a huge savings. A 400 dollar detroit is cheap also. I guess my ass is back to the drawing board now! Better now than when I break something. Thanks for all the input. Even you whiterhino...... ::
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Old November 9th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #31
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I never said you weren't knowledgable! I definately was not directing that towards you at all! I wasn't aiming that towards anyone that has posted in this thread, just to keep the rif-raf out. I just know a question like 60 or 14b brings out a lot of people that haven't actually ran them. I had my mind all made up as to what I was going to do until I posted this thread. I am planning on taking a lot of time and spending a lot of money on these, I don't want to do it wrong and regret it in the future. Most people on gl seem to be going 14b but I have people around here telling me that I will never break my hp 60. I just want to make the most educated decision that I can.
You took me too serious.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #32
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You took me too serious.
don't you know the internets is some serious biznass! Keep your monkey business and general tom foolery for the pub and out of my uber serious axle jig thread!
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Old November 9th, 2010, 09:02 PM   #33
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When you buttweld the tubes you would be better off grinding them to a 37 degree angle and right down to a knife edge Then knock the edge off with a file.
45 degrees was just a number to give an idea of the chamfer on the ends. If I had measured it, it probably would have been closer to the number you mention since it is more work to put a 45 degree chamfer on than a 37 and when you're removing 1/4" of material with an angle grinder, a +/- 10 degree tolerance is acceptable.


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Gap it with a piece of 3/32 rod and put 4 tacks on it. The gap will shrink a pinch from tacking it so lay your rod in the bevel and move nice and slow with the torch and just make sure you keep a small keyhole going.
I didnt put a gap in it since I didnt want to have to deal with any possible misalignment caused by uneven heating and cooling. I did weld the first pass with very little filler and had a slight undercut to the sides. This was my half assed way of getting as much penetration as possible without giving the joint the freedom to move much. I'm sure I missed some of the parent material in the joint but it'll be a good reference to inspect if it fails.


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This will result in a very nice root, Then fill and cap it. I would personally use er80s for the extra 10000 lbs of tinsile strength.
Do you think the additional tensile strength is enough to give up 4% of elongation when the parent material is only good for 70-80k psi tensile and 60-70k yield? I've started to use er70s2 lately and I like the results more than the s6. I clean the weld area the best I can with abrasives and a wire brush.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm actually curious since you have more experience than myself and I'd like to know what your experience has been.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 09:38 PM   #34
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For everything that I do at work I use er70s but I prefer to run er80s because it seems to weld a lot cleaner. You don't seem to have as much bs floating around in your puddle. Because of that it seems to flow a lot better. If you are worried about it pulling one way or the other from heat you should knife edge the bevel (if I am fusing a root I will lay the bevel back a pinch more), slam it shut and tack it. Then take an 1/8" grinding wheel and take out the bottom part of your bevel so you are basically doing a fusion weld like on process piping (j bevel). I watch my puddle and it will quickly drop just a pinch and then come back up again, that tells you that you are in. I watch how much the puddle elongates and that tells you how close I am from dropping my puddle in. If it gets too hot just add wire. Then the obvious fill and cap. To meet code your root has to be 100 percent tied in and can stick in a max of 3/32 or it can be sucked back 3/32 of an inch. Your cap has to be atleast flush and with a max height of 3/32 and at no part of the weld can your weld be thinner than the wall thickness of pipe. That is why I disagreed with how you did the butt welds. incomplete fusion is a bad stress point. Honestly you know a ton more about the technical end of welding than me and you put on some beautiful welds, I'm not trying toknock your skills at all.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 05:27 AM   #35
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OK, now you 2 can hug.

(interesting discussion though)
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Old November 10th, 2010, 07:16 AM   #36
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OK, now you 2 can hug.

(interesting discussion though)
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Old November 10th, 2010, 02:29 PM   #37
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FWIW, when I did a custom front housing, I did that type of jig. ground/trued/polished bar stock, not too expensive through speedy metals.

I got aluminum 1" wide pucks and turned them in my lathe to go in place of the carrier bearings, and into the ends of the knuckles, and pass the alignment bar through them.

In your case, where you are butt welding, I would go the extra step to get a few small, maybe 3" long, pieces of thin wall DOM to act as an alignment sleeve at the butt weld. Just to get some concentricity there. Easier than putting into some long V-block, I'd think.

So you'd just need to make the 'carrier' bearings to pass the alignment bar through, and more pucks for your outer tube ends.

The axle tube will move around a lot during welding, but it sounds like you are far above my skills there, so no worries.

I've seen it brought up recently on pirate that a lot of people do this for welding on the inner C's.. easier than knocking out the old tube and re-pressing the knuckles. Once welded properly and gusseted, its plenty strong.

I did see one rear axle fail when butt welded, but it was a ford 9" with somewhat thin tubes, not 0.500 wall stuff..
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Old November 10th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #38
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FWIW, when I did a custom front housing, I did that type of jig. ground/trued/polished bar stock, not too expensive through speedy metals.

I got aluminum 1" wide pucks and turned them in my lathe to go in place of the carrier bearings, and into the ends of the knuckles, and pass the alignment bar through them.

In your case, where you are butt welding, I would go the extra step to get a few small, maybe 3" long, pieces of thin wall DOM to act as an alignment sleeve at the butt weld. Just to get some concentricity there. Easier than putting into some long V-block, I'd think.

So you'd just need to make the 'carrier' bearings to pass the alignment bar through, and more pucks for your outer tube ends.

The axle tube will move around a lot during welding, but it sounds like you are far above my skills there, so no worries.

I've seen it brought up recently on pirate that a lot of people do this for welding on the inner C's.. easier than knocking out the old tube and re-pressing the knuckles. Once welded properly and gusseted, its plenty strong.

I did see one rear axle fail when butt welded, but it was a ford 9" with somewhat thin tubes, not 0.500 wall stuff..
The axles moving while welding is definately a concern of mine. That is the one thing that makes me worried about tiging it since it will pull a lot more than arc welding. The first pass is 6010 but most of that gets out and I would go straight to 7018 after that so it is almost as strong as tig. I also have clamps that will go on the pipe to align the weld joints so I shouldn't need anything to slide inside the tubes. on the other hand I could see how it wouldn't pull as bad since it gives the weld something to bond to on the inside of the tube. I would also much rather gap a weld with a backer plate than fuse it without.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #39
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Chad use a thin piece of dom for a backer plate inside the tube to help hold it in place along with the jig and i see no issue for it. For that matter use some 6010 for the root or some 7010 and then cap with 7018 and use a staggered starting place. If your backer was long enough you could drill some holes in the tube and plug weld it before welding the butt joint.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #40
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Chad use a thin piece of dom for a backer plate inside the tube to help hold it in place along with the jig and i see no issue for it. For that matter use some 6010 for the root or some 7010 and then cap with 7018 and use a staggered starting place. If your backer was long enough you could drill some holes in the tube and plug weld it before welding the butt joint.
i would wager a 10,000 dollar bet that the jig and dom will not hold the axle straight.
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