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Old December 18th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #281
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Looks good Sean. Just keep picking away at it!
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Old December 18th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #282
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Because the bushings at the frame put a lot more stress on the transmission case. It's easier and works for plenty of people, but others have broken the trans by doing so. Probably not a big deal just running a 4.0L, but might as well do it right.

I look at it this way: a single point forms a point. 2 points form a line. 3 points form a plane. 4 points is overconstrained. The motor mount bushings handle the side to side twisting load, the trans mount basically allows the side to side twist but stabilizes the combo front to rear. Adding a fixed point at the trans and moving the bushings outward is helping prevent the twist even more, and at a different axis. This will put more stress on the trans mount and case because they're fighting the torsional load now too. Like I said, probably a non-issue with a mild engine. Hell, it may even have been more helpful to reduce stress on the motor mounts because I've heard of those breaking on 4.0s before. I'm gonna look into adding some bracing to the factory mounts to spread the load on the block a little.
Makes very good sense, and good point with the weak factory engine mounts. Gonna mull over which route to go on mine. Leaning towards your design now. Still gotta hook up 220 in the new garage so I have time lol
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Old December 28th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #283
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Made good progress yesterday on the front coil over hoops, brackets, and cross brace. Looks like clearances won't be an issue, but gonna cycle it all tonight or tomorrow before I weld and gusset everything.


The shocks and hoops will stick slightly thru the hood. Fine by me, I love that look.

I also finished up the motor mounts and put on the Ram master cylinder to make sure I had room.

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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:13 PM   #284
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Didn't get much done last week but proved out a lot of work I've done recently. Things fit great so I'm pretty happy about it.

Flexed it out to check clearances and everything works great! There's about 25" of usable wheel travel measured at the hub.






Getting a wider, shorter radiator so the outlet won't be an issue with the track bar


The ONLY potential interference is at full lock left and full bump on both sides. I figure the likelihood of both scenarios is pretty unlikely, and even if they do hit it won't do more than gouge some paint and make noise. They still slide past each other pretty easily.


Trimmed the frame as much as I can manage without major surgery and the link just barely contacts at full flex. I'm good with that.


Gonna do some clearancing to get as much bump travel as possible, but I planned on that.
Decent cut needed to clear track bar on passenger side:


Tiny bit needed at driver side to clear truss:

Probably gonna cut a small arc into the truss to clear the crank pulley, we'll see if I need to have that much travel or not. Pretty sure I'll do it.


I'm happy with it. 4" lift, heavily trussed 1 tons, and 6" vertical of uptravel.
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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:34 PM   #285
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Looks sexy
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Old January 8th, 2014, 07:00 AM   #286
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Looking nice. But I don't agree with the "just barely hit in a rare case and that's OK" mentality. When things are flexing under load with some inertia behind it, they tend to go further and impact harder. I have rub marks in places that never hit while flexing in the garage. Clearance it now or adjust your bumps so they don't hit. You won't miss 1/4-1/2" of travel as much as you will notice hitting when you don't want to.

Just back reading, I really like and agree with your 3 point/4 point theory. I have 4 and it makes me wonder if I should rethink it. I'll probably leave it as-is since it's been that way for several years with no issue. But, I'll know why if I do have an issue.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 07:18 AM   #287
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If your track bar is hitting the frame, why not just drop it a little? The mount looks like it is only tack welded and you could have it done in 5 minutes, you wont notice the difference and your frame will remain 'not hacked'. Looks good!

What post number do you explain your 3 link theory? Don't make me search 15 pages.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 07:29 AM   #288
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Post #280.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:11 AM   #289
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Giggity giggity. Looking promising. With this much progress, I will be wheeling with you in spring for sure!
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Old January 8th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Looking nice. But I don't agree with the "just barely hit in a rare case and that's OK" mentality. When things are flexing under load with some inertia behind it, they tend to go further and impact harder. I have rub marks in places that never hit while flexing in the garage. Clearance it now or adjust your bumps so they don't hit. You won't miss 1/4-1/2" of travel as much as you will notice hitting when you don't want to.

Just back reading, I really like and agree with your 3 point/4 point theory. I have 4 and it makes me wonder if I should rethink it. I'll probably leave it as-is since it's been that way for several years with no issue. But, I'll know why if I do have an issue.
Thanks.
While I agree with the flex/hitting situation, flex isn't the problem. Under flex there's a mile of clearance. It only contacts at full lock left and full bump on both sides. Any other situation there's plenty of room. I agree that it's not ideal, but it seems to be the best situation out of the options. When it does hit, the radius of the bar seems to slide over the bolt head without much issue. It basically glances off the bolt head. It'd be noisy and annoying, but won't cause any real damage. I might be able to move the axle forward a hair to minimize it, but too much will cause other issues. If I move the mount back or axle forward significantly, the frame mounting bracket, bolt, and track bar will interfere with the axle housing at or before full bump. This would be a hard, potentially damaging interference, not a "flexible" one like the tie rod, and would happen regardless of steering angle.
I think I'm going to leave it for now. If it ends up being a problem, I may end up redoing to whole track bar setup. The only way I can see to make it clear would be to switch the bushing to the axle end and run the heim at the frame without misalighment spacers(which probably aren't needed in this case anyway). I may get a bug up my ass and do it now, but at this point I don't think it'll be necessary.

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If your track bar is hitting the frame, why not just drop it a little? The mount looks like it is only tack welded and you could have it done in 5 minutes, you wont notice the difference and your frame will remain 'not hacked'. Looks good!

What post number do you explain your 3 link theory? Don't make me search 15 pages.
There are several spots I need to clearance to gain bump travel, and none are particularly difficult. I don't want to change the track bar geometry and add bumpsteer to the equation. I agree a small change probably wouldn't be noticeable, but I also don't think it's necessary.

The "3 link theory" isn't about suspensions, it's about powertrain mounting points. Single center bushing at trans vs. hard mount to a crossmember with 2 outboarded bushings.

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Giggity giggity. Looking promising. With this much progress, I will be wheeling with you in spring for sure!
That's the plan!!
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Old January 8th, 2014, 09:18 AM   #291
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The "3 link theory" isn't about suspensions, it's about powertrain mounting points. Single center bushing at trans vs. hard mount to a crossmember with 2 outboarded bushings.
I haven't gotten a chance to look at what you are doing yet, but from the sounds of it, my first thought is that it doesn't matter. When twisting a tube, you get equal and opposite forces at both ends. dampening at one end translates into dampening at the other end. I am probably missing something here.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #292
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I haven't gotten a chance to look at what you are doing yet, but from the sounds of it, my first thought is that it doesn't matter. When twisting a tube, you get equal and opposite forces at both ends. dampening at one end translates into dampening at the other end. I am probably missing something here.
It's not about dampening, it's about forces transferred into the transmission case. 3 mounting points puts the majority of the stress on the mounts as intended, 4 mounting points is overconstrained and transfers more stress into the transmission case and has led to damage for some people. That's the cliff notes. Both methods have worked for many, many people, but I feel the 3 point mounting, like every OEM vehicle that I've come across has used, is safer.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 10:11 AM   #293
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So you are only hitting at full stuff on both sides while full left locked, as in a full stuff crash or no air in your shocks? If that is the case, I agree, you will never see that scenario until you are doing an endo pirouette. At that point, you have bigger problems. I though it was full flex on one side with left lock. THAT, you would see.

RE the trans mount being 1 point or 2 point, I agree with you. (green needs to listen ) The motor mounts control side to side roll while the trans mount controls front to back roll. No technical terms from me. If you extend the trans flex point left and right to the frame, WITH A SOLID MOUNT at the trans/cross member, the side to side torsional roll is now conflictive between the front motor mounts and the rear trans mounts. This puts a torsional twist at the trans/cross member joint, which was never meant to see torsional loads. It's only meant to see a vertical load and dampen vibration.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #294
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So you are only hitting at full stuff on both sides while full left locked, as in a full stuff crash or no air in your shocks? If that is the case, I agree, you will never see that scenario until you are doing an endo pirouette. At that point, you have bigger problems. I though it was full flex on one side with left lock. THAT, you would see.
Yep! Well it wouldn't be no air in the shocks cuz I've got coilovers, but same idea. So yeah, if it's hitting that hard at full lock something is already broken, or I'm about to test out my rollcage. It may hit rarely in other scenarios, but I don't think it'll be enough of an issue to warrant a change.

If you look between the driver side jackstand and the steering box you can see how much vertical clearance there is between the tie rod and track bar bracket at full flex. If the passenger side is drooped less it'll be closer, but I still don't expect it to hit often.


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RE the trans mount being 1 point or 2 point, I agree with you. (green needs to listen ) The motor mounts control side to side roll while the trans mount controls front to back roll. No technical terms from me. If you extend the trans flex point left and right to the frame, WITH A SOLID MOUNT at the trans/cross member, the side to side torsional roll is now conflictive between the front motor mounts and the rear trans mounts. This puts a torsional twist at the trans/cross member joint, which was never meant to see torsional loads. It's only meant to see a vertical load and dampen vibration.
Exactly. The torsional resistance may be a benefit in some cases, but if the mounts are designed properly then 3 points should be all that is needed. I've heard of some stock 4.0 mounts and stock 4-bolt LS mounts breaking, but I have no idea what other variables were at play when that happened. Hopefully mine will be okay.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 02:07 PM   #295
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I left 1/2" for everything at full bump......the first time I fell off a ledge and landed on 1 corner a really loud bang confirmed that 1/2" wasn't enough. Added another 1/2" spacer in the front under the bumps and haven't had an issue since. Lesson learned, leave at least 1" because frames flex and things move more than you can simulate.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #296
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Makes sense. It'll probably end up being tighter than that but I can always raise bumpstop pads later if need be

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Old January 8th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #297
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I left 1/2" for everything at full bump......the first time I fell off a ledge and landed on 1 corner a really loud bang confirmed that 1/2" wasn't enough. Added another 1/2" spacer in the front under the bumps and haven't had an issue since. Lesson learned, leave at least 1" because frames flex and things move more than you can simulate.
Right about now would be a good time for another fat ass comment.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:16 PM   #298
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It's your future...... I see..... Trimmed bolt heads. I thought it would be tolerable, too.
Jeep looks great. Tires are too big tho..
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Old January 8th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #299
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And in my future I see a date with a wire wheel and a spray can
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Old January 8th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #300
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It's your future...... I see..... Trimmed bolt heads. I thought it would be tolerable, too.
Jeep looks great. Tires are too big tho..
When does/did yours rub? Just at full lock all the time? It's at the axle end so I imagine it'd already be worse than what I'm dealing with. I did already look for a button head bolt though Couldn't find anything in 9/16"...
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