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Old August 21st, 2006, 11:48 AM   #1
Miffy
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Default School Tax

Ok opening a can of beans here:

Why do we have to pay School tax as property owners? Would this not be more fair and equal if it was done by a tax all people paid? Because someone own's more land is that just cause for them to pay the rest of there lives for the School systems? The largest part of our land taxes we pay go to the schools. and what ever happened to the money from the lottery?
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:30 PM   #2
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Why then do people without kids pay school tax? Or people whose children go to private schools?
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:34 PM   #3
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Other than the homeless and poor, everybody pays property tax. Even renters pay property tax,. A portion of thier rent goes toward paying the landlord's tax bill.

If you can come up with a better solution, send a letter to wartface and see what she can do for you.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:43 PM   #4
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yes we charge more for rent to cover the taxes but my point is we work hard all our life. to get ahead and because we own more then one home we pay extra to the schools. It just seems we pay more then our fair share out. I know its the american way. But I can not afford Medical Insurance at over 800 bucks a month. and then it would only cover 80-20%. yet all of them in office have full coverage for themselves and there kids.

Ok I will shut up now and go back to my wayworld world....:tonka:
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:49 PM   #5
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people love to ask/point at lotto/lottery sales as "the be all/end all" for public education.

fact is, that lottery revenues are (were last time I looked into it) less than 10% of the total revenue for public education.

historically, property taxes were used, as they were one of the most stable, and predictable forms of revenue, and not just for schools, but also for your local/county government. public education has a long history of being tied hand in hand with public/governmental "services".

Some argue, that they've never been a primary consumer of public education, either through not having kids, or via sending their kids to private schools.

I personally have never been a primary consumer of our City's fire department/services, but none the less I'm glad that it's there.

for what it's worth, the voters in michigan are responsible (albiet their hand was forced by engler and his cronies) when in 1994 ya'll voted for Proposal A, and the "reduction" in property taxes, the capping/uncapping garbage, as well as the homestead/non-homestead exemptions.

This added many levels of administrative headache for each, and every taxing jurisdiction to manage, and attempt to budget/forecast against as well.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 12:52 PM   #6
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School tax does a few things.

1 - Money to provide a better school district.
2 - Better school district also means higher value for your home.
3 - Kids are involved with pre and after school activites... a lot less mischief to get into.
4 - Schools can provide latch key for younger kids, keeping parents in the school district, which helps local economy.

That's some of the things I remember from on of my tax classes... <shrug>
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Old August 21st, 2006, 01:14 PM   #7
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I have no prob paying for our school systems, I guess I just feel that Its un-just because we have to pay so much do to properties we own and can not afford medical insurance. being sole business owners we have to deal with our own retirment. they are saying that you need close to a mill in savings to retire at the age of 65. Guess we will be working untill they put us in the ground...:miff:
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Old August 21st, 2006, 01:17 PM   #8
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You can sell all of your property and invest in pork bellies.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 01:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffy
being sole business owners we have to deal with our own retirment.
It is that way for most companies. I have to plan my own retirement as well. Gone are the pension days of GM and other companies
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Old August 21st, 2006, 02:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Goode
It is that way for most companies. I have to plan my own retirement as well. Gone are the pension days of GM and other companies
it's that way for many government agencies as well.



I guess it's one less thing for me to worry about. Men don't have much longevity in my family (Dad just turned 60 Friday, and he's the oldest male in like 3 generations on either side, even at that, he nearly died last year after aspirating a blood clot after nasal surgery to fix his busted nose)
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Old August 21st, 2006, 02:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffy
I have no prob paying for our school systems, I guess I just feel that Its un-just because we have to pay so much do to properties we own and can not afford medical insurance. being sole business owners we have to deal with our own retirment. they are saying that you need close to a mill in savings to retire at the age of 65. Guess we will be working untill they put us in the ground...:miff:
I heard this time and again, when I worked for white lake township, in the assessing office, only it was slightly different.

it was folks being all upset, that they had to sell off their family lake front cottage after 3 generations in the family.

it's all about priorities, and/or planning. my family hasn't been fortunate enough to ever have a 'family cottage' choosing other priorities over it.

*Shrug*

as for how much one needs to retire, I love those "they says"... :tonka:

in some respects, it's sorta like being able to afford kids. if you wait until you can 'afford them' you'll never have them.

besides, we all know that as active as you and marv are, you'll never truly/fully retire. but also, what I'm getting at, is what type/style of retirement needs to be planned out way in advance.

if one expects to eat caviar for breakfast every morning, and golf 36 holes per day at 5 star courses, then one had better have socked aside some serious cash over the years...
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Old August 21st, 2006, 03:41 PM   #12
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Because if they try to fix it and change it to a sales tax, there's a panic.

A few years back (OK, like 16) they tried in MI. Raise the sales tax to something around 7% and eliminate property taxes for schools. That way EVERYBODY funds schools - tourists, business travelers, pimps, welfare queens, illegal aliens, etc... And - the level at which contributions are made is tied to income (i.e. consumption - the more you have, the more you spend, the more you save).

Senior citizens (who often curtail spending) get an automatic tax break.

People who save (instead of spending) aren't penalized.

However, like a flat rate federal income tax, it's too simple, too straightforward, eliminates the need for large state and federal tax staffing, and doesn't have any loopholes to allow people to bypass them, so it won't fly.
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Old August 21st, 2006, 10:53 PM   #13
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it maked perfect sense to me to fund schools and other city services through property tax. It's the people who live in those houses nad work in the businesses that will be sending kids to the schools and using the services, why not have them pay for them. I've never had my kids in the schools my property taxes support but of all the taxes I have to pay thats one I don't mind.

As for retirement I'm planning on working til I'm dead.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 08:26 AM   #14
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Plus, by using property taxes, it also allows some localization of the taxes based on the local districts needs and the communities feelings.

If there was a flat tax across the state, I think the issues with distributing monies across the state would be even more complicated...
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:24 AM   #15
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All valid points, and as a hardcore conservative, the last thing I want to see is less local control of schools.

However, think of our gentrifying population - soon we will have more senior citizens than ever before. Property taxes are a major issue there - and it's amazing how attitudes change when people pay houses off and see the size of the tax bill and have to choose between personal quality of life and more money for schools. There's a reason Del Webb builds many of their retirement villages out in the boonies - no schools. And as we become a more mobile society, grandkids more often are distant and not in the local school district, so the "tie" to the schools is not there.

And, face it MI has a well-established track record of exempting any sizeable business from taxes to induce them to locate there. Trust me, I was heavily involved with an area school district who's largest taxpayer didn't have to. There's no state slush find to make up for that loss of revenue. "Hello citizens, in order to get this foreign-owned business to settle here and provide jobs for people who live 40 miles away, we're going to exempt them from taxes - we'll be cutting school programs, shortening the school day and raise your taxes to make up the difference". Yes, it really happened.

So, I think reliance on property taxes is not long-term sustainable.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankNBrew
Other than the homeless and poor, everybody pays property tax. Even renters pay property tax,. A portion of thier rent goes toward paying the landlord's tax bill.

If you can come up with a better solution, send a letter to wartface and see what she can do for you.
Yes, but places like condo associations and trailer parks screw the rest of us b/c they are taxed as a whole and not as individual residences and they end up paying a lot less. Go to any town meeting and you will find this out. Trailer parks are necessary as "affordable housing", but they cost the rest of the tax payers big time b/c they require more infrastructure per square mile and they are usually packed full of kids and pay little into the tax system.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Plus, by using property taxes, it also allows some localization of the taxes based on the local districts needs and the communities feelings.

If there was a flat tax across the state, I think the issues with distributing monies across the state would be even more complicated...
I dont think it would have to change currently everyone's property tax is pooled, and the state gives each district a per student allowance to spend. no reason why the sales tax couldn't be estimated then divided by the number of students in the state.

the only local tax that benefits local schools is local property millages voted on and passed by you to improve the buildings and other capital.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 11:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amc78cj7
Yes, but places like condo associations and trailer parks screw the rest of us b/c they are taxed as a whole and not as individual residences and they end up paying a lot less. Go to any town meeting and you will find this out. Trailer parks are necessary as "affordable housing", but they cost the rest of the tax payers big time b/c they require more infrastructure per square mile and they are usually packed full of kids and pay little into the tax system.
Condo's are individually assessed, and taxed (As well as owned). Just like "regular homes" and businesses, as they are also individuall owned.

trailer parks are a heavy consumer of all government services, not just schools, and there have been many attempts to attempt to make up the perceived diference. the park as a whole is however taxed on it's value (the value of which is often predicated on the income stream it can generate - think of it as an annuity, as that's how they sell in the market place) and each individual pad/tenant is assessed a flat rate pittance of a tax.

In addition, the law states that each assessor shall asses, and levy personal property taxes upon garages, decks, sheds, and other improvements that exist within a licensed trailer park, but as always, it's an ad-valorem tax, and what really is the value of a garage, inside a trailer park "in the market".

in practice, this is rarely, if ever assessed/levied, and when it is, it also is a pittance.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 11:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan
So, I think reliance on property taxes is not long-term sustainable.
what's your definition of long term? :tonka: it's been in place (admitedly revised) for roughly as long as the state has existed. it's also a commonly used ad-valorem tax in virtually every state in the union.

(many also levy "property" or "use" taxes on your personal belongings, furniture, and even intangible's taxes on the value of any stocks/bonds/patents that you may own)
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 11:10 AM   #20
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Because if they try to fix it and change it to a sales tax, there's a panic.
talk about a further dampening of the automobile market...
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