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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #61
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The freedom to not be required to carry identification papers with you at all times.
Like I said, part of the problem.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #62
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Ever travel? I'm about 160 miles away from any close freind or family member right now.
are you seriously going to travel more then a few miles from home and not make sure you have your ID on you? besides, all you have to do is know your DL number, they can call in that number and get a description of you, so even forgetting your ID doesnt really matter much
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:29 PM   #63
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Like I said, part of the problem.
If wanting to preserve my freedoms is "part of the problem" then I am happy and proud to be part of the problem.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #64
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You mean your freedom to be irresponsible?

The time between when you leave home without it, and when you get back home to pick it up after you remember it, don't speed or run any red lights, or anything else that might get you stopped by a LEO. You don't have the freedom to do any of those things anyway. One in a million chance you get stopped on the EXACT DAY that you forget it.
Yup, that one, I love it.

For instance, looking like you don't have ID papers???

What this boils down to is really very simple.

Do you want to become a stop and ID nation? Or do you want to rightfully be able to send back illegals who are arrested for committing a crime, while leaving everyone else the hell alone?
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:40 PM   #65
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If wanting to preserve my freedoms is "part of the problem" then I am happy and proud to be part of the problem.
Look, rejecting the immigration bills because of your "freedom" to go without an ID is asinine. You don't HAVE to keep a spare tire in your car, but you do because you might need it one day. You don't HAVE to keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen, but you do because you might need it one day. You may not HAVE to keep an ID on you, but knowing you MIGHT need to show it one day, for WHATEVER reason, you are an idiot for not carrying it on you. One in a million chance that you might have to show it on the exact day you "forgot " it.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #66
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Yup, that one, I love it.

For instance, looking like you don't have ID papers???

What this boils down to is really very simple.

Do you want to become a stop and ID nation? Or do you want to rightfully be able to send back illegals who are arrested for committing a crime, while leaving everyone else the hell alone?
How does one "look" like they don't have any ID?

And anyway, the bills specifically state that checking for immigration status can only occur during a stop for another offense first. Stopping for ID only is forbidden, and you can bet your ass that the ACLU and every lawyer in town would jump on a LEO who stopped you for ID only. The "Stop and ID nation" cries are a smokescreen that a lot of people buy into too easily.

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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #67
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How does one "look" like they don't have any ID?
I should have made my sarcasm more overt
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #68
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I should have made my sarcasm more overt
Sorry, my sarcasm meter is on the fritz. Waiting on a part from Minneapolis.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #69
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are you seriously going to travel more then a few miles from home and not make sure you have your ID on you? besides, all you have to do is know your DL number, they can call in that number and get a description of you, so even forgetting your ID doesnt really matter much
No. But suppose you travel across the country, get a hotel room, and go to the beach. Will you take you ID or leave it in your room?

And I don't remember my DL number.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:01 PM   #70
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No. But suppose you travel across the country, get a hotel room, and go to the beach. Will you take you ID or leave it in your room?

And I don't remember my DL number.
THEY CAN'T STOP YOU TO CHECK YOUR ID ONLY! PERIOD. It's only while investigation a primary offense first. Get that into your head. What the hell kind of law are you breaking on the beach? Don't break a law in the first place and they won't approach you. What the hell are you so afraid of? Do you habitually forget your wallet all the time or something?
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:18 PM   #71
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I'm a fan of natural rights. IF we can get rid of the nanny state, then free flowing immigration will be possible. However, that is not the case currently. We need some kind of guest worker program to make it easier for immigrants to become citizens and pay the debts they incur while being here. Their cheap labor is of great value to manual labor markets but the illegal immigrant pays more taxes than people think:

Most illegals are renters
~They pay property tax through their rental fees (property taxes pay for public school, thus illegals are paying for schools their children attend)

Illegals have to eat and need goods to live
~they pay taxes on food, they pay taxes on goods and services

Illegals use roads
~they still pay a gasoline tax for every gallon they buy

Illegals don't pay income tax:
~nether do any Americans making under $40,000

The only legitimate taxes illegals miss paying are medicare and medicaid which are huge burdens that are flooding the system. This is why I think there should be a guest worker program and an easier path to citizenship in the United States (Not condoning amnesty)

I do not like the idea of the government being able to 'ask for papers'. That being said, all Arizona's law is is the federal law but with the exception that Arizona state and local police enforcement may now enforce immigration law set by Arizona. It's a slippery slope thats not worth going down.

Make it easier for citizenship
Create a guest worker program
END BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP THUS ELIMINATING ANCHOR BABY SITUATIONS.
(The one time you should look to europe for policy is on immigration).
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:30 PM   #72
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THEY CAN'T STOP YOU TO CHECK YOUR ID ONLY! PERIOD. It's only while investigation a primary offense first. Get that into your head. What the hell kind of law are you breaking on the beach? Don't break a law in the first place and they won't approach you. What the hell are you so afraid of? Do you habitually forget your wallet all the time or something?
No. Just felt like arguing tonight.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #73
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I don't think so. If I am walking down the street, a cop can not randomly stop me and ask my my name.
Yes they can. You don't have to stop or answer any questions but the cop is not prohibited from ASKING you to stop and answer questions. Just becuase an officer walks up to you and wants to know something does not mean you are being detained.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 11:03 PM   #74
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Yes they can. You don't have to stop or answer any questions but the cop is not prohibited from ASKING you to stop and answer questions. Just becuase an officer walks up to you and wants to know something does not mean you are being detained.
Actually, anytime they ask you a question and you respond with, "Am I being detained or am I free to go," they are more than likely going to keep you and this mostly is grounds for suspicion. This country has so many laws, not one single human being on this planet can know all of them. It's sickening when you think what is law and what isn't. I really need to give you money for a certification that says I can shoot of fireworks? I need to give you a permit to drive on this public land? I need a permit to fish? This is getting out of control. The last thing we need are more laws.
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Old July 14th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #75
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Actually, anytime they ask you a question and you respond with, "Am I being detained or am I free to go," they are more than likely going to keep you and this mostly is grounds for suspicion. This country has so many laws, not one single human being on this planet can know all of them. It's sickening when you think what is law and what isn't. I really need to give you money for a certification that says I can shoot of fireworks? I need to give you a permit to drive on this public land? I need a permit to fish? This is getting out of control. The last thing we need are more laws.
Yep, big "catch-22". the police can't arrest you for refusing to identify yourself unless they have reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong, but the very act of refusing to identify yourself may give them reason to be suspicious of you.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 05:39 AM   #76
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Yes they can. You don't have to stop or answer any questions but the cop is not prohibited from ASKING you to stop and answer questions. Just becuase an officer walks up to you and wants to know something does not mean you are being detained.
Well you're kind of supporting my point. Yes, anyone can have a conversation with anyone else. But I'm not required to answer any questions or show ID. They can't detain me for refusing to have a discussion or telling them who I am.

Now we all know any cop can come up with a probable cause if he wants to. My point is that I agree with Bruce. I don't ever want to be required to have ID on me at all times.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 05:47 AM   #77
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Well you're kind of supporting my point. Yes, anyone can have a conversation with anyone else. But I'm not required to answer any questions or show ID. They can't detain me for refusing to have a discussion or telling them who I am.

Now we all know any cop can come up with a probable cause if he wants to. My point is that I agree with Bruce. I don't ever want to be required to have ID on me at all times.
Several years ago, my Mother was arrested and jailed for not having ID on her person. She was released when my dad found and provided her drivers license to the Muskegon PD.


(and no, she was not driving when she was arrested.)
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When cheese wiz is left in the tip of the can it because a rock hard cheese plug. So if you are too tall you should duck when you walk down the stairs. If you don't you can get a parking ticket.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 06:10 AM   #78
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hahaha, this thread has 317 landings from .gov associated IP addresses so far.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 07:09 AM   #79
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Several years ago, my Mother was arrested and jailed for not having ID on her person. She was released when my dad found and provided her drivers license to the Muskegon PD.


(and no, she was not driving when she was arrested.)
I'm quite sure there is more to this story.
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Old July 15th, 2010, 07:11 AM   #80
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hahaha, this thread has 317 landings from .gov associated IP addresses so far.
You mean big brother is watching?
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