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Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:40 AM   #1
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Default Discuss: Eliminate Teacher's Unions And Tenure - Pay For Performance

What if we were to eliminate the teacher's unions, eliminate tenure, and pay for performance?

And when I say "pay for performance", I mean make it possible for teachers to earn $100K a year or more in salary (and maybe more in long-term deferred compensation). The trade-off is they have to break from their outmoded system of tenure and protecting the incompetant / lazy. Essentially, be judged (and fail or succeed) like other college-educated professionals.

Obviously, defining "performance" properly is key, but it has to be a function of standardized test scores (are they delivering the goods?), graduation rates (are their retaining their "customers"?), and some kind of outcome measures (i.e. number of students succeeding in later grades, going onto college, or being employed after school). Yes, parents have a role in this, but there are statistical tools that allow that to be factored in and even localized.

Using outcome measures, a good teacher who chooses to teach in a "bad" school has the potential to make a big change - and to therefore be better compensated. One who decides to do the minimum will be paid likewise.

This would give good teachers an incentive to remain good teachers and not move into administrative positions to make more money.

It would reward great teachers.

It would motivate "on the fence" good/great teachers to develop.

It would attract more people to teaching.

It would allow the administrative ranks of the school systems to be filled with business professionals (i.e. people educated and skilled in management, finance, etc...) rather than "converted teachers" -allowing schools to be run better.

Thoughts?
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 09:47 AM   #2
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seems intresting. could be bad could be good. What about the teachers who get crappy students who do not want to try or put fourth any effort?


my dad and mom both have ties to school districts so I may have to bring this up with them to see what they think about it. My mom is a teacher and my dad is president of a school board (diffrent schools) so itll be intresting to hear them bicker for a while.

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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:08 AM   #3
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bla bla bla....no matter what you do the fact still remains that no teacher will make 100k because there isn't enough fucking money ...wherer do you propose to get the money for that?



SIGH...another uninformed person that "thinks" they know how the schools are run. It's already set up that the more you develope, the more money you make.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:12 AM   #4
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You are so god damn angry for a yooper.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws
bla bla bla....no matter what you do the fact still remains that no teacher will make 100k because there isn't enough fucking money ...wherer do you propose to get the money for that?



SIGH...another uninformed person that "thinks" they know how the schools are run. It's already set up that the more you develope, the more money you make.
I was under the distinct impression that in my school district (in HS) our more senior, tenured teachers got paid in the neighborhood of 75-80 K. But I could be wrong. I do know however that Tenured proffessors at the college level tend to SUCK
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawierider
I was under the distinct impression that in my school district (in HS) our more senior, tenured teachers got paid in the neighborhood of 75-80 K. But I could be wrong. I do know however that Tenured proffessors at the college level tend to SUCK
impression, vs. find out for sure. and find out the educational levels of those senior/tenured highschool teachers. I'm willing to bet that most, if not all have masters degrees.

as it is, with the district level emphasis (in turn pressured by the state level emphasis, and the press) on existing standardized testing, already too much of the annual curriculum is already aimed at passing the tests.

as anyone who has ever had to sit for any form of standardized test, or certification test for employment as an example can tell you, passing the test doesn't mean you have learned, or know a damned thing.

time and again, we hear how important it is for parents to be involved in their children's education, and upbringing. time and again, however, we lay the blame at the teachers for not teaching.

sorry, but teachers hands are largely tied. do you have any idea how truly difficult it is to "fail" a student these days, what with our political correctedness, you can't even use that term in k-12 anymore, it's "hold them back"...
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 11:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawierider
I was under the distinct impression that in my school district (in HS) our more senior, tenured teachers got paid in the neighborhood of 75-80 K.
Tenure does not dictate salary. Salary depends on a few variables: education level, senority, and the district's pay scale. In southeastern MI, many districts have pay scales that max out close to $100k/yr. As a generalization, the teacher would need a master's degree and 10years of experience to max out their earnings. Principals, cirruculum directors, superintendants, and business directors are capable of earning over $100k/yr.... it depends on the district.

Tenure is a security device for teachers, which they can receive after 4 years in the district. In the event of a layoff, the teacher is not guaranteed a job, they are guaranteed to be called back to work within 5 years(IIRC) when a position is open with their qualifications. After 5 years, the district is not obligated to rehire that person if their job becomes available.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 11:53 AM   #8
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Huh. I am not union. We do not have tenure. The only way I see a raise is when I get degrees. Oh, and because there is no money, I don't even see a cost of living raise this year.


Oh, and most of the teachers that I work with fall under the income levels to qualify for our programs.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 01:33 PM   #9
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I say eliminate sports for those schools who don't perform to acceptable standards. Use that money to hire competant teachers and pay them well along with letting principals use the big paddle with the holes drilled in it.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 02:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuddyPaws
bla bla bla....no matter what you do the fact still remains that no teacher will make 100k because there isn't enough fucking money ...wherer do you propose to get the money for that?
.

in middle school in the early 1990s i had a teache that made OVER 100k Approx 110 in 1992'ish.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 02:27 PM   #11
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sound like a great way to further distract teachers from the job of educating our young and make them ever more likely to just "teach the test" rather than actually try to give kids an education.

Plus, how do you judge teachers in subjects like art and specialized classes like you'd find in the upper high school grades? What "standard" test do you apply?
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
sound like a great way to further distract teachers from the job of educating our young and make them ever more likely to just "teach the test" rather than actually try to give kids an education.

Plus, how do you judge teachers in subjects like art and specialized classes like you'd find in the upper high school grades? What "standard" test do you apply?
THERE are teachers both the kids love and parents love. I only had a few of them but even the bad ass hole kids did well in one particular teachers room cuase EVERYONE i knew even the burnout kids respected the hell out of the guy. He could be paid triple any other teacher in the district and i think it would be a good value. You wouldnt measure teachers 100% on test scores. Thats part of the problem. The teachers think they answer to know one as long as they talk in front of a few kids for a few hours a day (the bad ones anyways)

There is such subtle ways as seeing students come back to school to visit the special teachers as a means of measuring who is a good teacher. The kids know and they remember.

Kids review the teacher and parents review the teacher each quarter. Just like students get report card, this is permanent record and saved on file and mostly non of it will matter but it can show trends, and the same issue showing up every year etc that can be helpful in identifying great and crappy teachers.

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Old August 22nd, 2006, 03:09 PM   #13
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Eliminating sports and PE is already happening to focus on testing, and is leading to fat kids. All over the news this week.


I can't see any way to 'score' teachers. Damn near no job uses a pure performance based scale, especially that wide ranging.

I support paying teachers more, but yeah, there isn't the money in the system. I got to see a lot of what goes on in Lansing and the ISDs thru my wife's old job.


I really just hate the realities of NCLB. Granted, as a kid, I loved standardized test, as I rocked them. But school should NOT be about prepping for a stupid test, it should be about LEARNING. There is a difference. Look how many book smart people you've probably met in your life who are clueless in the real world.

Most of the best teachers I've had were unconventional in their tactics somewhere along the line.

Data such as success in later grades, going on to college, etc, isn't really relevant, since even in one year, a student has somewhere between 6-12 teachers which will affect those numbers.


If I could go make 80k-100k teaching, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. I absolutely love to do it, but I don't think I'd be able to support my family anywhere near our current, already meager, lifestyle.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 03:09 PM   #14
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Teachers will net make the money that they deserve until our society figures out that we way overcompensate someone who is athletically talented, and way underpay teachers and public safety. We teach kids that they can make more money as an athlete then they can if they save lives or mold young minds.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 03:12 PM   #15
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Again, other than pro sports, movies, etc... are there any jobs out there where people paid in such huge variances based on performance?

Well, that and contract vs direct hires, since I've seen those to be 50-100% differences in pay/benefits.


Hell, do this for engineers. There are plenty who are good, and plenty who deserve minimum wage.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 03:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFearMe
Teachers will net make the money that they deserve until our society figures out that we way overcompensate someone who is athletically talented, and way underpay teachers and public safety. We teach kids that they can make more money as an athlete then they can if they save lives or mold young minds.
Hey now! Don't go bringing the truth into this. We like to make our half-assed ideas and plans work.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 05:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar


I really just hate the realities of NCLB. Granted, as a kid, I loved standardized test, as I rocked them. But school should NOT be about prepping for a stupid test, it should be about LEARNING. There is a difference. Look how many book smart people you've probably met in your life who are clueless in the real world.

I have to give "standardized" tests to my students. THEY ARE FOUR YEARS OLD!

NCLB is the biggest joke there is. If you read up on it, it is based after a law in texas. There were a number of schools that were caught fudging test scores so that they would not lose money.


There is a good idea, If your students are doing poorly, we are going to take money away from your school so you have less to help the kids get better test scores.


Great thinking in my book.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 05:41 PM   #18
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There is a good idea, If your students are doing poorly, we are going to take money away from your school so you have less to help the kids get better test scores.
Isn't that the stupidest thing on the planet?


Quote:
There is such subtle ways as seeing students come back to school to visit the special teachers as a means of measuring who is a good teacher. The kids know and they remember.

I must be perdy good then because I get a ton of the little bastards coming over my house in the summer when they get back from college.


Quote:
in middle school in the early 1990s i had a teache that made OVER 100k Approx 110 in 1992'ish.

That an still be done in most districs...not all....at the Phd level and 30 years in. And remember...you are a GP kid....not a average school district kid.
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Old August 22nd, 2006, 06:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesFearMe
Teachers will net make the money that they deserve until our society figures out that we way overcompensate someone who is athletically talented, and way underpay teachers and public safety. We teach kids that they can make more money as an athlete then they can if they save lives or mold young minds.

Thats because they can make more money as a pro athlete.

Are pro athletes overpaid? Some make a shitload of money for sure, but how much revenue is generated for their employer/organization/team in comparison to their salary? Pro sports is huge business...governement services aren't. Not that I don't think teachers, cops, firefighters, etc should be better compinsated but you need to realize the business side of things.



Didn't Florida recently set something up where teachers pay/raises are based on test scores?

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Old August 22nd, 2006, 06:46 PM   #20
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OK - a lotta emotion out there.

Muddypaws - I've never met you, but you sound like the kind of teacher I'd like to see us attract / retain (i.e. the work you do with the student Jeep project, etc...). I'd love to see a system that continues to reward you for the work you do, and doesn't drive you into administration for advancement.

Trust me, as a former board member I know how schools work. Likewise, $100K a year is not that far off in most districts around here - and with some efficiencies in the administrative end of things to free up money for teaching more is possible.

I'm also not suggesting that good measurement is easy (it never is) - but the proper measures (not just standardized tests - but they are important) can be arrived at.

It would require changes. Privatized non-classroom services to reduce cost: school bus service, food service, maintenance, groundskeeping, etc... Combine small districts to drive administrative efficiencies. Professional management. The non-classroom portions of education take up a growing portion of the education dollar - addressing this frees up classroom money.

And I'll debate whether gym classes keep kids thin or the lack of them makes kids fat. Parents make kids fat (unlimited feeding with junk food, video games, etc...) - a 50 minute gym class 3, 4, or 5 days a week won't do it.


Again, I offered this as a debate topic - not an attacj on anyone or their livelihood...
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