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Old July 1st, 2010, 10:10 PM   #101
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Hi Bill. You are about to be introduced to something called circular logic.
actually, I forgot all about that post...pretty much got the answer I was expecting (one that says alot without explaining anything...yep, your circular logic), except missing one important part with all this talk of "God" creating rapists and murderers...I cant really believe the religous people here did not catch that one...oh well...

off to Drummond Island tomorrow, next week I'll see if anyone figures out what prime point they missed there...unless I forget about this thread again...most likely will.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 02:48 AM   #102
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actually, I forgot all about that post...pretty much got the answer I was expecting (one that says alot without explaining anything...yep, your circular logic), except missing one important part with all this talk of "God" creating rapists and murderers...I cant really believe the religous people here did not catch that one...oh well...

off to Drummond Island tomorrow, next week I'll see if anyone figures out what prime point they missed there...unless I forget about this thread again...most likely will.
I can tell you, with out a shadow of a doubt, that God did NOT initially create those people to be what they are now. God created us all to live in a perfect world and, as you can see day to day, we do not live in a perfect world. It's all about choices. In the end, God has no control of our choices. Could he? Yes. Does he? No. His Initial choice to create us is his choice. And please keep in mind that Axe murders and rapists are not born that way, for the most part. There is almost always a factor stemming from parents or other people that make BAD CHOICES in the persons life to have them go to such an extreme.

According to Christian Theology we all have a curse on us because of what Our initial Ancestor, Adam, did (or didn't do). Did God know this? Yes, but that doesn't mean Adam did. That also doesn't mean we know how our lives (or the lives of others) will pan out. God Created us so WE could live the human Experience of Choice. His hope, even though he knows who will or not, is that we get to experience this life with him.

Just Because you know your kid is going to die someday does not mean you completely give up doing anything with them. No, you grow them up to be good human beings even though you know down the road, they will die. Is it worth it for parents to do this? For those that share the view point you typed out you shouldn't agree with this. You should just give up on your kids because you know they will die.

For God, He knows that some of his Children will 'die'. They will Go to hell. That doesn't make him give up on them in the first place or not create them at all. Also, don't think for a Second that it doesn't hurt him every single time he creates someone that he KNOWS will be 'bad' or stay in thier fallen, sinful state. The only reason he's allowing this world to decay as far as it has is because of people not accepting his truths. He knows how many will go to hell but he's waiting for that specific time where he knows he will get as much of his children to him.

/book.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:17 AM   #103
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I can tell you, with out a shadow of a doubt, that God did NOT initially create those people to be what they are now. God created us all to live in a perfect world and, as you can see day to day, we do not live in a perfect world. It's all about choices. In the end, God has no control of our choices. Could he? Yes. Does he? No. His Initial choice to create us is his choice. And please keep in mind that Axe murders and rapists are not born that way, for the most part. There is almost always a factor stemming from parents or other people that make BAD CHOICES in the persons life to have them go to such an extreme.

According to Christian Theology we all have a curse on us because of what Our initial Ancestor, Adam, did (or didn't do). Did God know this? Yes, but that doesn't mean Adam did. That also doesn't mean we know how our lives (or the lives of others) will pan out. God Created us so WE could live the human Experience of Choice. His hope, even though he knows who will or not, is that we get to experience this life with him.

Just Because you know your kid is going to die someday does not mean you completely give up doing anything with them. No, you grow them up to be good human beings even though you know down the road, they will die. Is it worth it for parents to do this? For those that share the view point you typed out you shouldn't agree with this. You should just give up on your kids because you know they will die. Not a good example. Dying is not a choice. One cannot choose to die or not die; however our children can make many life choices which we have no way of knowing. Tell me this. If you knew. You KNEW, before your child was even born, before your wife even got pregnant, that the child you were about to create would grow up to rape children, would you still get your wife pregnant and bring that child in to the world? Because THAT, my friend, is a very accurate parrallel to what you're saying.

For God, He knows that some of his Children will 'die'. They will Go to hell. That doesn't make him give up on them in the first place or not create them at all. Also, don't think for a Second that it doesn't hurt him every single time he creates someone that he KNOWS will be 'bad' or stay in thier fallen, sinful state. The only reason he's allowing this world to decay as far as it has is because of people not accepting his truths. So he's punishing us? He knows how many will go to hell but he's waiting for that specific time where he knows he will get as much of his children to him. He can get as many or as few of his "children" as he wants by either expediting or delaying his wrathful destruction of the Earth and the raising of his "children" to heaven. Or maybe he can't control when he will destroy the world either?

/book.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:38 AM   #104
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I am worshiping my cup of coffee right now.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:43 AM   #105
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I am worshiping my cup of coffee right now.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 12:27 PM   #106
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I can tell you, with out a shadow of a doubt, that God did NOT initially create those people to be what they are now. God created us all to live in a perfect world and, as you can see day to day, we do not live in a perfect world. It's all about choices. In the end, God has no control of our choices. Could he? Yes. Does he? No. His Initial choice to create us is his choice. And please keep in mind that Axe murders and rapists are not born that way, for the most part. There is almost always a factor stemming from parents or other people that make BAD CHOICES in the persons life to have them go to such an extreme.

According to Christian Theology we all have a curse on us because of what Our initial Ancestor, Adam, did (or didn't do). Did God know this? Yes, but that doesn't mean Adam did. That also doesn't mean we know how our lives (or the lives of others) will pan out. God Created us so WE could live the human Experience of Choice. His hope, even though he knows who will or not, is that we get to experience this life with him.

Just Because you know your kid is going to die someday does not mean you completely give up doing anything with them. No, you grow them up to be good human beings even though you know down the road, they will die. Is it worth it for parents to do this? For those that share the view point you typed out you shouldn't agree with this. You should just give up on your kids because you know they will die.
Not a good example. Dying is not a choice. One cannot choose to die or not die; however our children can make many life choices which we have no way of knowing. Tell me this. If you knew. You KNEW, before your child was even born, before your wife even got pregnant, that the child you were about to create would grow up to rape children, would you still get your wife pregnant and bring that child in to the world? Because THAT, my friend, is a very accurate parrallel to what you're saying.
Dying may not be a choice but to you and others on here you would argue that nothing is a choice so it's a perfect example. Your question is not relevant because my child WOULD NOT do that because I will bring them up in a loving environment. But I'll play along, you and I have no idea what our kids will do. That's true. Therefore we have them, then because of some glitch in their upbringing they rape people. I think you'll find that most Cereal Killers and Rapists didn't have a good child hood. Or Good parents.

We don't have the same perspective as God and this is, IMO, what is Hindering you all to see what I'm saying. That is this :I'm not exactly sure how God views our lives. I'm trying my Best, through my biblical understanding of God, to explain it to you. I'm doing that with a Human mind that is Restricted by Human Thinking. I am not one to say, with out a doubt, the way God views us. I would also encourage all of you to realize that if he created this universe his reasons and motives are probably way beyond what we can fathom.

Once one of you can tell me how to create a Star, with your hands, you can start telling how God SHOULD think. That's exactly what EVERYBODY does. "I can't believe in a God that allows pain in the world" Is a Perfect example or "I can't believe in a God that endorses wars". The Truth of the matter is that those are Prime examples of people trying to restrict God with out even coming close to understanding his Character. The Created cannot tell the creator what he is and how he should act. The Creator Tells the Created what they are and how they should act. This role reversal is a perfect example of our rebellious Spirit.

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For God, He knows that some of his Children will 'die'. They will Go to hell. That doesn't make him give up on them in the first place or not create them at all. Also, don't think for a Second that it doesn't hurt him every single time he creates someone that he KNOWS will be 'bad' or stay in thier fallen, sinful state. The only reason he's allowing this world to decay as far as it has is because of people not accepting his truths.So he's punishing us? He knows how many will go to hell but he's waiting for that specific time where he knows he will get as much of his children to him.

He can get as many or as few of his "children" as he wants by either expediting or delaying his wrathful destruction of the Earth and the raising of his "children" to heaven. Or maybe he can't control when he will destroy the world either?
He knows the exact moment and day he will bring his world back to it's full glory. He is not Punishing us. He's showing his mercy by allowing you to have that one more day to accept his gift and be with him in heaven. If every single person in the world were to accept Christ Today then God would restore his world the second it happened. He doesn't want you to be part of the Destruction of this world but because of the rebellious spirit that lives with in all of us, a good percent of the world will. He's being Merciful and you guys are Prolonging his rath out of fear of the "Unexplainable". When that day comes, I would hate to be wrong with God.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:16 PM   #107
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Very good sermon Scott. I liked it and you made your point as stated we are not gaurented another day. And we don't know His return so to get right with your creator is an very good idea.
Jesus is said to come as a thief in the night and we will not know when.
His gift is free to accept but so many avoid Him and what He has to offer. Life is good!
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 08:37 PM   #108
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Dying may not be a choice but to you and others on here you would argue that nothing is a choice so it's a perfect example. Your question is not relevant because my child WOULD NOT do that because I will bring them up in a loving environment. But I'll play along, you and I have no idea what our kids will do. That's true. Therefore we have them, then because of some glitch in their upbringing they rape people. I think you'll find that most Cereal Killers and Rapists didn't have a good child hood. Or Good parents.
.

whats really funny is you believe this shit! hahahhahha...nothing you have said is anything close to the truth....I dont care how you raise your child, you have little to no bearing on if he/she will be an asshole scumbag piece of shit...bad apples are bad apples and it doesnt matter how they were raised
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 09:46 PM   #109
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Cereal killers? I just beat the shit out of a box of Frosted Flakes. Does that make me a guilty of felonious cereal assult with intent to do great munchies harm?
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 10:39 PM   #110
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whats really funny is you believe this shit! hahahhahha...nothing you have said is anything close to the truth....I dont care how you raise your child, you have little to no bearing on if he/she will be an asshole scumbag piece of shit...bad apples are bad apples and it doesnt matter how they were raised

Statistical proof. Otherwise your equally as wrong. We're going to get into the "nature vs. Nurture" crap and we all know that is a can of worms that is useless. It's a mixture and we're both equally right/wrong. I tend to think it's mostly the upbringing and the environment. Show me a messed up Drug addict/serial killer/Mass murder that was raised in a house where the parents nurtured them and showed them love. You'll be hard pressed to find it.


And, for the record, Most of what I've said is close to the truth. Weather or not you want to accept that truth is up to you. Truth is Reletive. Truth to me is that your are going to burn in hell unless you don't meet the standards of God. Being that that is truth to me I want to make sure people aren't going to hell. For me, the truth is that You will be going to hell unless you accept Christ.


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Cereal killers? I just beat the shit out of a box of Frosted Flakes. Does that make me a guilty of felonious cereal assult with intent to do great munchies harm?
Serial. Sorry. Just as long as you didn't use Salt and a Battery. That's another charge. (Horrible I know).
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 11:26 PM   #111
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Statistical proof. Otherwise your equally as wrong. We're going to get into the "nature vs. Nurture" crap and we all know that is a can of worms that is useless. It's a mixture and we're both equally right/wrong. I tend to think it's mostly the upbringing and the environment. Show me a messed up Drug addict/serial killer/Mass murder that was raised in a house where the parents nurtured them and showed them love. You'll be hard pressed to find it.


And, for the record, Most of what I've said is close to the truth. Weather or not you want to accept that truth is up to you. Truth is Reletive. Truth to me is that your are going to burn in hell unless you don't meet the standards of God. Being that that is truth to me I want to make sure people aren't going to hell. For me, the truth is that You will be going to hell unless you accept Christ.




Serial. Sorry. Just as long as you didn't use Salt and a Battery. That's another charge. (Horrible I know).

No I wouldn't be hard pressed to find people that have commited all ranges of crimes from all walks of life...how many rapist, crackheads and murders have you talked to? I've talked to thousands...
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 02:54 AM   #112
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No I wouldn't be hard pressed to find people that have commited all ranges of crimes from all walks of life...how many rapist, crackheads and murders have you talked to? I've talked to thousands...
And how many of them Love thier parents? Respect them? How come Mothers day is such a busy holiday for prison visits/Phone calls but fathers day is, if anything, like a normal day? Could it be because those people, that have committed a crime, feel neglected by thier fathers and turned to what they thought where "good Examples" of what a man/woman should be? Mostly what those role models taught them was to swear, lie, steal, and cheat, maybe beat women, maybe even rape girls. That scenario would fall under Nurture, not nature.


I'm not saying this applies to every single one of them but I can tell you that I KNOW that it applies to alot of them. Either way, Those people still make a choice to act the way they do. God is not Forcing them to do it. That's what this conversation was all about in the first place. These people make poor choices based on what they learned form thier fathers and mothers.

You can't even deny that you act like the person that raised you. I'm not sure what your family situation was like but if you had a father I can Guarantee you that you share certain traits (Talking, Hand Gestures, ETC) that he has. It's because, as children, we mimic our guardians, better yet, look up to our guardians on how to act. I may not be a Cop, I may not be a Psychologist but If there is one thing I know my stuff about it's Kids. That is my career field and I am Actively involved with children in many different ways.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 09:10 AM   #113
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how many rapist, crackheads and murders have you talked to? I've talked to thousands...
Chatting on the interweb doesnt count Hancho!!

By the way, you are RONG and L4CX is RITE. Nurture has more to do with it than Nature (its a scientific fact). I dont have to work in a jail to know that bad people breed bad people and good people breed good people (simply put).
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 09:10 AM   #114
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And how many of them Love thier parents? Respect them? How come Mothers day is such a busy holiday for prison visits/Phone calls but fathers day is, if anything, like a normal day? Could it be because those people, that have committed a crime, feel neglected by thier fathers and turned to what they thought where "good Examples" of what a man/woman should be? Mostly what those role models taught them was to swear, lie, steal, and cheat, maybe beat women, maybe even rape girls. That scenario would fall under Nurture, not nature.


I'm not saying this applies to every single one of them but I can tell you that I KNOW that it applies to alot of them. Either way, Those people still make a choice to act the way they do. God is not Forcing them to do it. That's what this conversation was all about in the first place. These people make poor choices based on what they learned form thier fathers and mothers.

You can't even deny that you act like the person that raised you. I'm not sure what your family situation was like but if you had a father I can Guarantee you that you share certain traits (Talking, Hand Gestures, ETC) that he has. It's because, as children, we mimic our guardians, better yet, look up to our guardians on how to act. I may not be a Cop, I may not be a Psychologist but If there is one thing I know my stuff about it's Kids. That is my career field and I am Actively involved with children in many different ways.
I'm telling you people that do dumb shit come from all walks of life and all ranges up upbringing, male and female so to say you can raise a kid that wouldnt be a burden on society is false...all you can say is you hope to raise a kid that is not a shitbag. I do know people/kids and I do know what they are capable of. And for those commies that say children are not cognitively developed to have criminal intent I say BULLSHIT! Not all children that have fallen understand what they have done but I will tell you a lot of them do.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 09:59 AM   #115
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I think both you guys are right to some degree. I can cite several examples of kids in bad environments (drug abusing parents) growing up to be very hard working and responsible adults. On the other hand, my step brothers (who where pretty much raised by my Dad, I lived with my Mom) both turned out to be massive losers. Dad was a cop and was very strict yet fair. He instilled in us what was right and wrong and made us aware of the consequences should we stray. When they became adults, my one step brother was in and out of jail then eventually ended up dead in the Arizona desert due to a bad drug transaction. My other step brother is now in jail for smuggling drugs from Mexico to California.

I'm raising my kids with lots of love and holding them accountable for their actions. I am aware that when they get older, other influences with come into their lives and I may not be able to control their decisions. As harsh as it sounds, if my kids wish make bad decisions when they are older, they will be doing it without me rescuing them. I have no problem letting them languish in their own stupidity.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 11:13 AM   #116
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I'm telling you people that do dumb shit come from all walks of life and all ranges up upbringing, male and female so to say you can raise a kid that wouldnt be a burden on society is false...all you can say is you hope to raise a kid that is not a shitbag. I do know people/kids and I do know what they are capable of. And for those commies that say children are not cognitively developed to have criminal intent I say BULLSHIT! Not all children that have fallen understand what they have done but I will tell you a lot of them do.
We all have a Capability to do bad. I wont question that. I also won't question the fact that, ultimately, my kids will have the ability to do bad if they want. What I can hope for is, by teaching them the right way, they won't want to do bad. They'll want to do good. Teaching rules and Laws is half of the equation, the other is teaching them how to interact with people and be loving to people they care about and, in some cases, people they don't care about.

What I'm saying is that there is that inherent will to do bad and be selfish (just look at babies, they are selfish) but with a balanced approach to rearing a child, you can teach them to deal with it properly but not because they are afraid of punishment but because they respect thier parents. That then leads to them respecting other authorities which means they obey the law.

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I think both you guys are right to some degree. I can cite several examples of kids in bad environments (drug abusing parents) growing up to be very hard working and responsible adults. On the other hand, my step brothers (who where pretty much raised by my Dad, I lived with my Mom) both turned out to be massive losers. Dad was a cop and was very strict yet fair. He instilled in us what was right and wrong and made us aware of the consequences should we stray. When they became adults, my one step brother was in and out of jail then eventually ended up dead in the Arizona desert due to a bad drug transaction. My other step brother is now in jail for smuggling drugs from Mexico to California.

I'm raising my kids with lots of love and holding them accountable for their actions. I am aware that when they get older, other influences with come into their lives and I may not be able to control their decisions. As harsh as it sounds, if my kids wish make bad decisions when they are older, they will be doing it without me rescuing them. I have no problem letting them languish in their own stupidity.
Just like anything in this world, there are exceptions. I'm also sorry to hear that your brothers ended up where they are. Seems like you turned out quite differently. From the little bit I know about you on this site of course.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 12:27 PM   #117
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Just like anything in this world, there are exceptions. I'm also sorry to hear that your brothers ended up where they are. Seems like you turned out quite differently. From the little bit I know about you on this site of course.
I'm just an ordinary guy with a desire to build strange vehicles. In real life I'm pretty dull.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 03:41 PM   #118
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I'm just an ordinary guy with a desire to build strange vehicles. In real life I'm pretty dull.
You are too modest, your wife must have seen something interesting about you.
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Old July 3rd, 2010, 06:59 PM   #119
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I'm just an ordinary guy with a desire to build strange vehicles. In real life I'm pretty dull.
Well, I'm not the most exciting person in the world either. . I'm such a nerd that I'm starting to make my Halloween Costume right now. I'm going to be going as 'Master chief' from halo. Lots and Lots of Fiber Glass and bondo. I'm not only dull, but I'm a Super nerd too.
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Old July 7th, 2010, 10:43 PM   #120
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This is for when you come back for one of your "Visits" to the site.


I was listening to a Podcast from a Guy named Mark Gunger. He explained what we're talking about in a very good way. A Maze.

We're in the maze (Or as I call it, the Human Experience). In many life sized mazes they will have a person high above the maze who can see the whole maze. They usually name him something like "the maze master" or something like that. God is the "maze master" of the human Expierence. He created it. He made us all to go through this maze, With Countless turns and intersections. He doesn't tell us what to do or force us to go the right way. WE can choose to go anyway we want. What Christians should be doing is calling out to the Maze master for guidance. He knows what way will get us to him (or the exit, or heaven, Whatever.).

It gets better. This is completely for an example. It may be horrible, It may not be. But here we go. In the OT Sin entered the world. The "Hedge" of the maze grew out and we couldn't be with, or see, or hear the maze master. He tried to get us to trim out the hedge by following certain rules of purification and Sanctification. We failed because we couldn't really reach the top (or in this case, God's Standards). God Knew this would happen (because he created the Hedge and knows how it would grow) However, He sent his Son (Jesus) to come trim the hedge because he could do it. He trimmed the hedge for us. There is a Joke about the name Jesus and a Gardner (Think Mexican Jesus) but I'll let you but that one together.

The problem with the world is that Jesus's work was perfect but only if we decide to step out into the sections where we can see God and ask for his help. If we don't Accept Jesus's Work on the hedge (his sacrifice for us) we cannot talk to the Maze master because we cannot see him, or hear him, or talk to him. Notice, however, that I never said he cannot see you. He can and tries to get the ones that can see him to help those that can't get back to him.

God knows the end of the maze. He knows how it will end. But he does not force us to walk anyway we don't want to.
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