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Old June 14th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #81
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Did you go to wallbuilders? Historical data you are looking for from our founding fathers
Don't start pushing that bullshit site again. You can't say that it's not subjective information.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 06:39 PM   #82
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Is that what your god did?
No, He created the Original. From nothing. Intill science can prove that somehow we got something from nothing I'll go with My God on that one. What I was sayin is that Even in a Natural Disaster there is something that has to be Changed. I have yet to see a Natural Instance where you have no life and then have life. Sure, we can Synthesize life but that's still from cells that already have it. Intill a molecule can Create life from un-life it cannot be called a creator.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #83
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No, He created the Original. From nothing. Intill science can prove that somehow we got something from nothing I'll go with My God on that one. What I was sayin is that Even in a Natural Disaster there is something that has to be Changed. I have yet to see a Natural Instance where you have no life and then have life. Sure, we can Synthesize life but that's still from cells that already have it. Intill a molecule can Create life from un-life it cannot be called a creator.
So you're saying that at the initial point where there was nothing, life had to be created?
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Old June 15th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #84
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So you're saying that at the initial point where there was nothing, life had to be created?
I'm saying that Science has no (Good) explanation to how this all started. They will never have any scientific proof. Any Hypothesis that states there was once nothing, then something is completely bogus. There has to have always been something eternal. Weather that's Matter or God is where you and Split thinking ( I assume). Even so, no matter which route you take, that eternal Force had to have either had all it's resources available or, by a Scientific impossibility, created something from nothing. My God is big enough to do that. Science is not. It can't go agianst it's own laws.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 11:29 AM   #85
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I'm saying that Science has no (Good) explanation to how this all started. They will never have any scientific proof. Any Hypothesis that states there was once nothing, then something is completely bogus. There has to have always been something eternal. Weather that's Matter or God is where you and Split thinking ( I assume). Even so, no matter which route you take, that eternal Force had to have either had all it's resources available or, by a Scientific impossibility, created something from nothing. My God is big enough to do that. Science is not. It can't go agianst it's own laws.
First of all, science is not the cause of anything, it's the study of causes. Science could come to conclude one day that a conscious being created the universe out of nothing, but that would come from much study to verify. That's the big difference between religion and science.

Still, if there had to be something that created us, since you infer that the matter by which we were created is not "eternal", then what created your god? Whys is that she can be eternal, but matter can't?
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Old June 15th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #86
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First of all, science is not the cause of anything, it's the study of causes. Science could come to conclude one day that a conscious being created the universe out of nothing, but that would come from much study to verify. That's the big difference between religion and science.

Still, if there had to be something that created us, since you infer that the matter by which we were created is not "eternal", then what created your god? Whys is that she can be eternal, but matter can't?
I never said it couldn't be eternal and I believe God is Eternal. That was more a Stab at the people who call out Christians and say "Who created God". In response to that I usually say something along the lines of "Who, or what, created matter? Who, what Created that? ETC". It breaks down to ether something has always been, or something just had to become out of nothing.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 12:23 PM   #87
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I never said it couldn't be eternal and I believe God is Eternal. That was more a Stab at the people who call out Christians and say "Who created God". In response to that I usually say something along the lines of "Who, or what, created matter? Who, what Created that? ETC". It breaks down to ether something has always been, or something just had to become out of nothing.
Agreed. So why can't the matter be the thing that is eternal, and the god the thing that is imagined to explain it, and the relationship you have with god be the sense of fulfillment in the knowledge that you need no further explanation?
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Old June 15th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #88
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Agreed. So why can't the matter be the thing that is eternal, and the god the thing that is imagined to explain it, and the relationship you have with god be the sense of fulfillment in the knowledge that you need no further explanation?
Because My God is so much more then just an Explanation. He's more then a Feeling of Fullfillment. I get what you're saying and understand it from your point of view Though.

The thing you are missing out of this equation is Purpose, or a reason. With God at the Helm of the Creation (In place of Matter) you get to the question of Why he did it. Then you draw from that that there is a Purpose, or reason, he created each one of us. If Matter where the Eternal And God was just Imagined then we wouldn't be drawing any purpose except from with in our selves. With God Being eternal we Search for our purpose within him.

That is Crucial Because, if he is the Eternal, his purposes are not restricted by time, space, or any other thing but his standards. His Reasons are Justified because he's seen everything because He created it. He knows why and By Going to him for our purpose in life we are, in essence, going to the direct source of our purpose.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 12:39 PM   #89
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Because My God is so much more then just an Explanation. He's more then a Feeling of Fullfillment. I get what you're saying and understand it from your point of view Though.

The thing you are missing out of this equation is Purpose, or a reason. With God at the Helm of the Creation (In place of Matter) you get to the question of Why he did it. Then you draw from that that there is a Purpose, or reason, he created each one of us. If Matter where the Eternal And God was just Imagined then we wouldn't be drawing any purpose except from with in our selves. With God Being eternal we Search for our purpose within him.

That is Crucial Because, if he is the Eternal, his purposes are not restricted by time, space, or any other thing but his standards. His Reasons are Justified because he's seen everything because He created it. He knows why and By Going to him for our purpose in life we are, in essence, going to the direct source of our purpose.
Makes perfect sense. If you believe that purpose precedes essence. Which brings us to the great philosphical debate: does essence precede existence, or does existence precede essence.

To illustrate:

Is a baby born with a purpose, then proceeds to live it out?

Is a baby born, then throughout it's life grows to develop (or not) it's purpose in life (those that fail or don't bother would be what Republicnas might call "losers").
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Old June 15th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #90
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Makes perfect sense. If you believe that purpose precedes essence. Which brings us to the great philosphical debate: does essence precede existence, or does existence precede essence.

To illustrate:

Is a baby born with a purpose, then proceeds to live it out?

Is a baby born, then throughout it's life grows to develop (or not) it's purpose in life (those that fail or don't bother would be what Republicnas might call "losers").
I'm taking Wild guess but would you be more of an essence Precedes Purpose kind of person? Christian Thinking is That we are born with a Purpose. In fact, God has our Purpose in life Before our parents even conceived us or he even Created this world, if you want to take it that far.

And in this case, I would rather go with a Loving, caring, and Just God determining my Purpose then just my parents or my self. I also like the Idea of my purpose being closely tied into how I was created (but due to sin am not as able) to Show people love. My God is a God Of Love and his purpose for most of us is to show love to other people. My Default is not to love other people though. In my fallen state at least. If my purpose were to come from within my self I would be scared to know what it would be. I know I am a Selfish Man and I know a Purpose from inside my self (or even my parents) would be of a Selfish Variety. This, I think, Is what we are seeing in our world today. People are no longer looking for their purpose from God, but from their selves.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 11:16 PM   #91
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I'm taking Wild guess but would you be more of an essence Precedes Purpose kind of person?
DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!

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Christian Thinking is That we are born with a Purpose. In fact, God has our Purpose in life Before our parents even conceived us or he even Created this world, if you want to take it that far.
So he already planned the lives of those that killed and maimed for pleasure and died without coming to him? Where, then, is our "choice"?

And in this case, I would rather go with a Loving, caring, and Just God determining my Purpose then just my parents or my self. I also like the Idea of my purpose being closely tied into how I was created (but due to sin am not as able) to Show people love. My God is a God Of Love and his purpose for most of us is to show love to other people. My Default is not to love other people though. In my fallen state at least. If my purpose were to come from within my self I would be scared to know what it would be. I know I am a Selfish Man and I know a Purpose from inside my self (or even my parents) would be of a Selfish Variety. This, I think, Is what we are seeing in our world today. People are no longer looking for their purpose from God, but from their selves.
It's easy to say when you're not the one god doomed to be a serial killer, or someone who died full of hatred and cruelty, or some other thing god planned for them. It's easy to sing praise when how plan for you was to be happy. What about those who will be doomed to burn for eternity in accordance with his plan?
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Old June 18th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #92
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Christian Thinking is That we are born with a Purpose. In fact, God has our Purpose in life Before our parents even conceived us or he even Created this world, if you want to take it that far.

normally, I would not get into a religious discussion at all on here, but I have to ask on this one.

So your saying that no person has any free will, that our lives are completely predetermined, and there is nothing that can be done about it? If so, then trying to convince someone to change their mind on any subject, religion included, is pointless, since it is already planned that they either will or will not agree with your beliefs. From what your saying, your god has already decided who is and who isnt going to follow him, and thats the end of it.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 07:59 AM   #93
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normally, I would not get into a religious discussion at all on here, but I have to ask on this one.

So your saying that no person has any free will, that our lives are completely predetermined, and there is nothing that can be done about it? If so, then trying to convince someone to change their mind on any subject, religion included, is pointless, since it is already planned that they either will or will not agree with your beliefs. From what your saying, your god has already decided who is and who isnt going to follow him, and thats the end of it.
Hi Bill. You are about to be introduced to something called circular logic.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #94
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It's easy to say when you're not the one god doomed to be a serial killer, or someone who died full of hatred and cruelty, or some other thing god planned for them. It's easy to sing praise when how plan for you was to be happy. What about those who will be doomed to burn for eternity in accordance with his plan?
No, Because God would not put that Need or Characteristic into someone's purpose. I haven't really mentioned it alot durning this discussion because I didn't really want to but there is another side to this. The Devil, Satan, Lucifer. He is the Father of lies and he can manipulate those choices that we have to make freely into his will as well. How God may appear to allow this to happen is where things get to the unexplainable to me. Honestly. I mean, it still comes down to the choices that person made or the people around him made. Some where down the line his views got twisted by satan.

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normally, I would not get into a religious discussion at all on here, but I have to ask on this one.

So your saying that no person has any free will, that our lives are completely predetermined, and there is nothing that can be done about it? If so, then trying to convince someone to change their mind on any subject, religion included, is pointless, since it is already planned that they either will or will not agree with your beliefs. From what your saying, your god has already decided who is and who isnt going to follow him, and thats the end of it.
Just because God knows what will happen does not mean we do. This is a crucial part to understanding what I am saying. Some may call it 'False' free will because we already have 'set' Paths we're going to take. I don't think this to be true. God is not bound by time so he can 'fast forward' to the end. He knows how our lives will turn out because he can see it from his timeless viewpoint. You and I, however, can only see it from our view point. We still have those choices to make, ones that God cannot make for us. He only knows the outcome of our lives and I don't doubt for a minute that he tries to drastically make the choices we make be ones that make us end up with him in the end.

I'll put this up just for sake of 'I think it works'. If you have a Kid you know, right from the beginning that they will grow up, or even die. Just because we know this will happen does not mean we don't teach them things, or raise them up in the right way. The way alot of you guys are coming off as understanding this is that if it where your kid, you wouldn't do a thing to teach them or get to know them because, from the view point you hold on God, there is no point because they are already going to be Grown up and then die. It's Inevitable. What you're failing to realize is that that kid needs to be taught those lessons to grow up. He also needs those lessons to live a Full life before he/she dies. They will die, but we can make that life more ful and purposeful if we act in it daily. This is no different with God.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #95
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Hi Bill. You are about to be introduced to something called circular logic.
Really? I try not to use that. But then sometimes I do, but then I don't use it again. So they cancel out right? .
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Old June 18th, 2010, 02:23 PM   #96
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No, Because God would not put that Need or Characteristic into someone's purpose. I haven't really mentioned it alot durning this discussion because I didn't really want to but there is another side to this. The Devil, Satan, Lucifer. He is the Father of lies and he can manipulate those choices that we have to make freely into his will as well. How God may appear to allow this to happen is where things get to the unexplainable to me. Honestly. I mean, it still comes down to the choices that person made or the people around him made. Some where down the line his views got twisted by satan.
But since he already knows the outcome he would know that we will go the way of Satan and fail him. He can't know our outcome and not know the ones that will not choose him, or worse, choose Satan and a life of evil (GW Bush, for example).


Quote:
Just because God knows what will happen does not mean we do. This is a crucial part to understanding what I am saying. Some may call it 'False' free will because we already have 'set' Paths we're going to take. I don't think this to be true. God is not bound by time so he can 'fast forward' to the end.
Then he knew that Adam and Eve would fail him before he even put them there. Okay, I think I'm catching on....


Quote:
He knows how our lives will turn out because he can see it from his timeless viewpoint. You and I, however, can only see it from our view point. We still have those choices to make, ones that God cannot make for us.
Based on the very next phrase, since he is our creator, you are saying yourself that he already HAS made the choice for us.


Quote:
He only knows the outcome of our lives and I don't doubt for a minute that he tries to drastically make the choices we make be ones that make us end up with him in the end.
See?

Quote:
I'll put this up just for sake of 'I think it works'. If you have a Kid you know, right from the beginning that they will grow up, or even die. Just because we know this will happen does not mean we don't teach them things, or raise them up in the right way. The way alot of you guys are coming off as understanding this is that if it where your kid, you wouldn't do a thing to teach them or get to know them because, from the view point you hold on God, there is no point because they are already going to be Grown up and then die. It's Inevitable. What you're failing to realize is that that kid needs to be taught those lessons to grow up. He also needs those lessons to live a Full life before he/she dies. They will die, but we can make that life more ful and purposeful if we act in it daily. This is no different with God.
But god isn't teaching me anything. It's people that do the teaching. People are fallible.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #97
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And he who made kittens put snakes in the grass.......
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Old June 18th, 2010, 11:19 PM   #98
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AGB
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L4CX

No, Because God would not put that Need or Characteristic into someone's purpose. I haven't really mentioned it alot durning this discussion because I didn't really want to but there is another side to this. The Devil, Satan, Lucifer. He is the Father of lies and he can manipulate those choices that we have to make freely into his will as well. How God may appear to allow this to happen is where things get to the unexplainable to me. Honestly. I mean, it still comes down to the choices that person made or the people around him made. Some where down the line his views got twisted by satan.
But since he already knows the outcome he would know that we will go the way of Satan and fail him. He can't know our outcome and not know the ones that will not choose him, or worse, choose Satan and a life of evil (GW Bush, for example).
Right, that's what I'm saying. But I'm also saying that those that choose to go that way (with Satan) God still tries to make go with him. Even if He does know the out come. It also doesn't change the fact that those people only lived out that life at the time they did. They Experienced this life and are now suffering the consequences of the choices THEY made in it.

If God had it his way (IE, Changing his Standards, allowing sin into Heaven ETC) He woudl allow everybody to come to him. If you can deduct that he knows the ones that are going to hell the you can also understand the great pain it must bring him to know that before it happens. But to also know that he STILL has to try and intervene in thier lives. That's called love.





Quote:
Quote:
Just because God knows what will happen does not mean we do. This is a crucial part to understanding what I am saying. Some may call it 'False' free will because we already have 'set' Paths we're going to take. I don't think this to be true. God is not bound by time so he can 'fast forward' to the end.
Then he knew that Adam and Eve would fail him before he even put them there. Okay, I think I'm catching on....

Yes, but already had a plan for salvation before he did. One that is still waiting for you and everybody on here.

Quote:
Quote:
He knows how our lives will turn out because he can see it from his timeless viewpoint. You and I, however, can only see it from our view point. We still have those choices to make, ones that God cannot make for us.

Based on the very next phrase, since he is our creator, you are saying yourself that he already HAS made the choice for us.
No, I haven't. I've said he wants us to make the choice that he knows will lead us to him. That is called "being in the will of God". Allowing him to show you the right choices to make and making them. You don't have to be in the will of God though. You can be in the Wll of AGB, Or L4CX, or Obama (God save us all )

Quote:
Quote:
He only knows the outcome of our lives and I don't doubt for a minute that he tries to drastically make the choices we make be ones that make us end up with him in the end.

See?
Once again, He is Drastically trying to tell us what choices to make but we don't have to listen. And even worst is that Satan is throwing out a complete opposite set of Choices he wants us to make as well. Thus, the Inside human Struggle we ALL face.


Quote:
Quote:
I'll put this up just for sake of 'I think it works'. If you have a Kid you know, right from the beginning that they will grow up, or even die. Just because we know this will happen does not mean we don't teach them things, or raise them up in the right way. The way alot of you guys are coming off as understanding this is that if it where your kid, you wouldn't do a thing to teach them or get to know them because, from the view point you hold on God, there is no point because they are already going to be Grown up and then die. It's Inevitable. What you're failing to realize is that that kid needs to be taught those lessons to grow up. He also needs those lessons to live a Full life before he/she dies. They will die, but we can make that life more ful and purposeful if we act in it daily. This is no different with God.
But god isn't teaching me anything. It's people that do the teaching. People are fallible.
Because you are not asking for help. You are not seeking him out. (I assume of course). You are Very true in saying that people are Fallible and have pointed out many instances where this is proven. Fallible teaching the Fallible is what we have every day. I believe in the Fallible seeking wisdom and Guidance from the Infallible.

I don't know the Exact reason God 'bothered' with this whole plan to be honest. I'm glad he did though, because that means we all are alive. We are Part of the Human Experience. I think that's why God Created (IMO) us and set this plan into motion so that we could experience him in a Different way then what we will for all eternity. This world is only a Poor reflection of the one to come and the one that was created originally. This is not the Final Race but only the Qualifier.
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Old June 19th, 2010, 06:46 AM   #99
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Don't start pushing that bullshit site again. You can't say that it's not subjective information.
So historical documents are now sujective information?
Just like the constitution now requires a disclaimer because they did and said things differently back then that may not align with our thinking in these times.
By discrediting historical documents from our founding fathers it makes it easier for you to also discredit the bible because that is also a historical document. At least your consistant
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Old July 1st, 2010, 09:51 PM   #100
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Right, that's what I'm saying. But I'm also saying that those that choose to go that way (with Satan) God still tries to make go with him. Even if He does know the out come. It also doesn't change the fact that those people only lived out that life at the time they did. They Experienced this life and are now suffering the consequences of the choices THEY made in it.

If God had it his way (IE, Changing his Standards, allowing sin into Heaven ETC) He woudl allow everybody to come to him. If you can deduct that he knows the ones that are going to hell the you can also understand the great pain it must bring him to know that before it happens. But to also know that he STILL has to try and intervene in thier lives. That's called love.








Yes, but already had a plan for salvation before he did. One that is still waiting for you and everybody on here.



No, I haven't. I've said he wants us to make the choice that he knows will lead us to him. That is called "being in the will of God". Allowing him to show you the right choices to make and making them. You don't have to be in the will of God though. You can be in the Wll of AGB, Or L4CX, or Obama (God save us all )



Once again, He is Drastically trying to tell us what choices to make but we don't have to listen. And even worst is that Satan is throwing out a complete opposite set of Choices he wants us to make as well. Thus, the Inside human Struggle we ALL face.




Because you are not asking for help. You are not seeking him out. (I assume of course). You are Very true in saying that people are Fallible and have pointed out many instances where this is proven. Fallible teaching the Fallible is what we have every day. I believe in the Fallible seeking wisdom and Guidance from the Infallible.

I don't know the Exact reason God 'bothered' with this whole plan to be honest. I'm glad he did though, because that means we all are alive. We are Part of the Human Experience. I think that's why God Created (IMO) us and set this plan into motion so that we could experience him in a Different way then what we will for all eternity. This world is only a Poor reflection of the one to come and the one that was created originally. This is not the Final Race but only the Qualifier.
That doesn't change the point that, according to you, God knows what each and every one of us will choose before putting us here, and he still puts some of us here to be rapists and serial killers... Yet he still "tries to get us to come to him"... Even though he knows we won't.... Because he put us here knowing we wouldn't....
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