Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 26th, 2010, 09:44 PM   #1
jeepitupyo
MMM Shrimp Slushy
 
jeepitupyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-23-06
Location: Flint 48507
Posts: 1,977
iTrader: (24)
Send a message via AIM to jeepitupyo
Right to Travel

Ok Yota Bill, The thread is started what is it all about. From what I understand as long as you don't have a license then you don't have to have plates or insurance to drive on public roads. School us.
__________________
05 Silverado Crew Z71
00 XJ BDS Long Arms 35's
Beelby & Sons Towing
St. Pierre Inc. Machining and Welding
jeepitupyo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2010, 09:48 PM   #2
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,872
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepitupyo View Post
Ok Yota Bill, The thread is started what is it all about. From what I understand as long as you don't have a license then you don't have to have plates or insurance to drive on public roads. School us.
From what I understand, and I could be wrong, We don't have the right to drive. It's a Privilege. Bicycles have more of a right to the road from what I understand.

If this is true, However, I wish I wouldn't have gone through all the trouble of to plate my car, get my license and pay for insurance. Dang. What waste of money.
L4CX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2010, 09:50 PM   #3
Ebs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: MI
Posts: 3,323
iTrader: (8)
Wat?

Driving isn't a right. You don't follow the rules, you don't get to drive.
Ebs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #4
aber61
Senior Member
 
aber61's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-22-08
Location: Commerce Twp. Michigan
Posts: 5,984
iTrader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebs View Post
Wat?

Driving isn't a right. You don't follow the rules, you don't get to drive.
x2
aber61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #5
Nuggets
Professional Pisser Offer
 
Nuggets's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09-15-06
Location: Bay City, MI
Posts: 13,302
iTrader: (12)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepitupyo View Post
Ok Yota Bill, The thread is started what is it all about. From what I understand as long as you don't have a license then you don't have to have plates or insurance to drive on public roads. School us.
You can't be serious.
Nuggets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #6
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,298
iTrader: (9)
You have the right to travel, but not to drive.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 05:59 AM   #7
Yota Bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 08-24-08
Location: Morrice, Mi
Posts: 3,229
iTrader: (11)
you have the right to free and unrestricted travel by the normal means of the day...yes you can legally drive with no license, no plate, etc, unless you are doing so commercially, or for profit...many courts have upheld this all over the nation...I'll post some links later, with specific court cases, gotta go to work now...

That does not mean you will not get pulled over and go to jail...you will get pulled over, you will get harassed, you will go to jail...and then you can fight it in court
Yota Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 08:09 AM   #8
L4CX
Out for the Summer!
 
L4CX's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-16-07
Location: Hillsdale, MI
Posts: 4,872
iTrader: (5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yota Bill View Post
you have the right to free and unrestricted travel by the normal means of the day...yes you can legally drive with no license, no plate, etc, unless you are doing so commercially, or for profit...many courts have upheld this all over the nation...I'll post some links later, with specific court cases, gotta go to work now...

That does not mean you will not get pulled over and go to jail...you will get pulled over, you will get harassed, you will go to jail...and then you can fight it in court
There is so much interpretation for that though. Are we talking normal Means of Transportation for out country or the world? Because it's still two legs in most countries. I'm sure people have won cases, it just seems odd. Maybe we should bring awareness of this law so that the books can be changed and then we won't have to have insurance, plates, licenses. It's a little fair fetched, even if it is true.
L4CX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 10:19 AM   #9
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yota Bill View Post
you have the right to free and unrestricted travel by the normal means of the day...yes you can legally drive with no license, no plate, etc, unless you are doing so commercially, or for profit...many courts have upheld this all over the nation...I'll post some links later, with specific court cases, gotta go to work now...

That does not mean you will not get pulled over and go to jail...you will get pulled over, you will get harassed, you will go to jail...and then you can fight it in court
I really would like to see the links, because there are laws and rules for operating a motor vehicle on a public highway. I think what you might run into is the public highway issue. The government controls and mandates on these roads so they can dictate their rules.
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 03:57 PM   #10
jeepitupyo
MMM Shrimp Slushy
 
jeepitupyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-23-06
Location: Flint 48507
Posts: 1,977
iTrader: (24)
Send a message via AIM to jeepitupyo
From what I've read about it, you still have to follow all posted speed limits and stop lights and other signs because those are laws without contradiction. It's simply a flaw in the way that the laws were written that leaves certain things to be interpreted in a different way.

It's similar to open carry laws. You could walk into Wal Mart with a shotgun slung over your shoulder. As long as you aren't threatening anyone and it is unloaded it is perfectly legal. Will people be scared and call the police? Yes. Will you get arrested? It's possible. Did you actually do anything against the law? No.
__________________
05 Silverado Crew Z71
00 XJ BDS Long Arms 35's
Beelby & Sons Towing
St. Pierre Inc. Machining and Welding
jeepitupyo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 04:13 PM   #12
dreezy
Haggard Fab
 
dreezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-28-08
Location: Holland Mi
Posts: 9,738
iTrader: (7)
Send a message via AIM to dreezy Send a message via MSN to dreezy
I could see the no plates, ins, etc flying IF you werent driving on goverment made and maintianed roads.

Nobody says you have to do these things to own or drive a motor vehicle, just if you do so on public roads.
__________________
"you think you're precious, I think you're shit."
dreezy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #13
Medic8
You call, we haul.
 
Medic8's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Southgate, MI
Posts: 1,492
iTrader: (4)
By all means, you can travel in a car, on a public highway, at your leisure. However, you can't actually operate the vehicle without proper licensing and insurance.

You're free to take whichever taxi, limo, or bus you want.
Medic8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 12:57 AM   #14
Yota Bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 08-24-08
Location: Morrice, Mi
Posts: 3,229
iTrader: (11)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
I really would like to see the links, because there are laws and rules for operating a motor vehicle on a public highway. I think what you might run into is the public highway issue. The government controls and mandates on these roads so they can dictate their rules.
there are regulations placed on operating a motor vehicle, and you must follow those regulations or accept the consequences and pay the fines

now, first off, I just want to say that everything I am talking about applies to public roads, and I will not be refering to expressways or interstate highways at all...I'm not sure how those fit in, since they were actually built for military use

you have the right to free and unrestricted travel by normal means of the day (yes, what is normal in this country, our Constitition does not apply to or care about anything that happens in Zimbabwe). The basis for this is taxes. We pay taxes for the upkeep and construction of roads, yet we are then taxed again for the use of those roads. A license plate and drivers license is a form of taxation.
Another argument against driver licensing is that it is a contract, with the between the state and the driver, to remove your rights and pay the taxes. A person under 18 cannot enter into a legally binding contract, yet you get your license at 16.
I'm not going to get into that one, thats a whole other issue.

The fact is, and has been held up by many court cases, that you have the right to free and unrestricted travel. Requiring you to license yourself and your vehicel are forms of taxation and restriction that are not constitutional. Regulations can be implied though (stop signs, speed limits, etc).


http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%2...vingRight.html


Case # 1 - "Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with the public interest and convenience. - Chicago Motor Coach v Chicago 169 NE 22

Case # 2 - "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."- Thompson v Smith 154 SE 579.

click the link above for more...I'm no going to bother to copy-paste the whole page...but I will add this:

"As hard as it is for those of us in Law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. The American citizen does indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of
another."

Of course, I have to bring up this quote from a pretty famous, and very important, case:

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." - Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 491.



Of course, if you are on the road for monetary gain, driving commercially, etc., then none of this applies...any commercial vehicle can legally be taxed and required to be registered, and any commercial driver can be required to have a license.

"...For while a citizen has the right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that right does not extend to the use of the highways, either in whole or in part, as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose no person has a vested right to use the highways of the state, but is a privilege or license which the legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion..." - State v Johnson, 243 P. 1073, 1078.



And I'm sure someone will say taht states can make thier own laws, seperate from the federal laws...entirely true, and I would not want it any other way...except that the states cannot remove rights that are guarenteed by the Constitution.

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;.shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary not withstanding". (This tells us that the U.S.
Constitution is to be upheld over any state, county, or city Laws that are in opposition to it.)

In the same Article it goes on to say just who it is within our governments that is bound by this Supreme Law:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;". - ART. 6 U.S. CONST.
Yota Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 01:08 AM   #15
Yota Bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 08-24-08
Location: Morrice, Mi
Posts: 3,229
iTrader: (11)
As I already stated, if you do decide to get rid of your drivers license, license plates, etc., you will get pulled over and arrested, go to jail, etc...but any fines levied due to not having these items are also not legal


"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945. ( There is no question that a citation/ticket issued by a police officer, for no drivers license, no current vehicle registration, no vehicle insurance etc. which carries a fine or jail time, is a penalty or sanction, and is indeed "converting a Right into a crime".)


http://www.apfn.org/apfn/travel.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com..._licensing.htm
http://www.welcome.freeenterprisesoc..._to_travel.htm
http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/re...t2travel.shtml
http://www.illidan1337.net/travel-ri...rivers-license
http://thecountyguard.org/right-2-drive-1.html
Some Court cases discussing the right to travel vs. the Privilege of driving - Forums Big News Network
http://thecountyguard.org/right-2-drive-handout.html

(yea, I know jeepitupyo already copy-pasted these links from somewhere)

do a little research and you will easily find many more cases holding this as fact.


Does any of this mean I am personally against licensing people to operate a motor vehicle, or licensing the vehicle itself? No, it does not mean that. I point all of this out for one simple matter.

The governement does step on our rights, remove them entirely if allowed, ignore the constitution, and we allow them to do it. It usually happens in ways that people dont even realize it is being done. Some will, and speak out against it, but for the most part, the people of this country have become lazy and ignorant of what thier rights actually are, what few powers the federal and state governments actually do have, and that the founding fathers chose thier wording of the original documents which this country was based on very carefully, because they were smart enough to know that they didnt know what the future might hold.
Yota Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #16
Yota Bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 08-24-08
Location: Morrice, Mi
Posts: 3,229
iTrader: (11)
More along these lines, but on a slightly different subject?

Have any legal money on hand? I doubt it.

In Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution adopts silver and gold coin exclusively as the money of the United States.

In Article I, Section 8, Clause 2 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution prohibits explicitly or implicitly the emission of any form of what was called in those days "bills of credit". Today we would call that paper money.

Now the standard in this system is the dollar, and, if you know nothing else about the monetary system of the United States constitutionally, learn what a dollar is. A dollar is a silver coin containing 371-1/4 grains of silver. That word is mentioned twice in the Constitution: in Article I, Section 9 and in the Seventh Amendment, guaranteeing the right to jury trial.

In the system that the founding fathers devised, the legal value of all the silver coinage must be proportional to the weight of silver they contain, and the legal value of all the gold coinage must be proportional to the weight of gold that the coins contain in relationship to the exchange value between silver and gold at the prevailing free market exchange rate.

All silver and gold coins may be legal tender for the values of silver and gold they actually contain, and Congress has the authority to, as the Constitution says, regulate the value according to these principles.

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 also disables the states from imposing on unwilling creditors anything but gold and silver coin as a tender in payment of debts — which, of course, reflects the inherent disability of Congress to declare anything other than gold and silver coin a legal tender

quotes from: http://www.conservativeusa.org/vieir100.htm

It doesnt take much to realize that the founding fathers knew corrupt people would eventually be in high places in this country, or people with less then adequate understanding. They did not want a country that issued paper (representational) money, or notes, backed by gold, which they could then control the value of, by either printing more money or selling off the gold.
Apparently, Lincoln disagreed.
Yota Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 02:14 AM   #17
slick250
Newbie
 
Join Date: 04-27-10
Location: dearborn mi
Posts: 1
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yota Bill View Post
As I already stated, if you do decide to get rid of your drivers license, license plates, etc., you will get pulled over and arrested, go to jail, etc...but any fines levied due to not having these items are also not legal


"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945. ( There is no question that a citation/ticket issued by a police officer, for no drivers license, no current vehicle registration, no vehicle insurance etc. which carries a fine or jail time, is a penalty or sanction, and is indeed "converting a Right into a crime".)


http://www.apfn.org/apfn/travel.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com..._licensing.htm
http://www.welcome.freeenterprisesoc..._to_travel.htm
http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/re...t2travel.shtml
http://www.illidan1337.net/travel-ri...rivers-license
http://thecountyguard.org/right-2-drive-1.html
Some Court cases discussing the right to travel vs. the Privilege of driving - Forums Big News Network
http://thecountyguard.org/right-2-drive-handout.html

(yea, I know jeepitupyo already copy-pasted these links from somewhere)

do a little research and you will easily find many more cases holding this as fact.


Does any of this mean I am personally against licensing people to operate a motor vehicle, or licensing the vehicle itself? No, it does not mean that. I point all of this out for one simple matter.

The governement does step on our rights, remove them entirely if allowed, ignore the constitution, and we allow them to do it. It usually happens in ways that people dont even realize it is being done. Some will, and speak out against it, but for the most part, the people of this country have become lazy and ignorant of what thier rights actually are, what few powers the federal and state governments actually do have, and that the founding fathers chose thier wording of the original documents which this country was based on very carefully, because they were smart enough to know that they didnt know what the future might hold.
thats great stuff thanks
slick250 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 06:04 AM   #18
Silver Bullet
Livin the American Dream
 
Silver Bullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-18-07
Location: Westland, MI
Posts: 3,712
iTrader: (4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreezy View Post
I could see the no plates, ins, etc flying IF you werent driving on goverment made and maintianed roads.

Nobody says you have to do these things to own or drive a motor vehicle, just if you do so on public roads.
ahhh but most local ordinaces require you to plate and insure a motor vehicle just to have it on your property.
Silver Bullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 08:41 AM   #19
atvextreme
Senior Member
 
atvextreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-05-09
Location: chesterfield, mi
Posts: 494
iTrader: (16)
thank you Yota, that was enlightening
atvextreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #20
dreezy
Haggard Fab
 
dreezy's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-28-08
Location: Holland Mi
Posts: 9,738
iTrader: (7)
Send a message via AIM to dreezy Send a message via MSN to dreezy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Bullet View Post
ahhh but most local ordinaces require you to plate and insure a motor vehicle just to have it on your property.
Not anywhere I live. This is a big reason as to why I am not looking to buy houses with in city limits. That and I also would like a couple acres to play with of my own.
__________________
"you think you're precious, I think you're shit."
dreezy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.31094 seconds with 53 queries