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Old May 12th, 2010, 10:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
yea go ahead and do that and let us know how it works out for you in your jail cell...moron...and I meant the 19th...And after you are sitting in your cell claiming your soverinty I'll bring you and your cell mate some meth and viagra so you guys can have a real party
Calling me a moron won't prove your point, or defeat mine.

I was not condoning breaking the law and landing yourself in jail. I am talking about nullification and sucession at the state level against the federal government's unconstitutional laws. It has had mixed results in the past, but is a valid form of civil disobedience against the federal government. However the individual can also sucede from the states, it's called emmigration, voting with your feet. So please keep your jail cell fantasy to your self.

the 19th amendment did not give women the right to vote, although that is what public educators will tell you. Read it carefully...

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


It deny's the gov't, both federal and state, the power to restrict a citizens right to vote based on sex. It does not grant women the right, they were born with the right to decide their own fate, just like every other citizen of this country.
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Old May 12th, 2010, 04:36 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
Calling me a moron won't prove your point, or defeat mine.

I was not condoning breaking the law and landing yourself in jail. I am talking about nullification and sucession at the state level against the federal government's unconstitutional laws. It has had mixed results in the past, but is a valid form of civil disobedience against the federal government. However the individual can also sucede from the states, it's called emmigration, voting with your feet. So please keep your jail cell fantasy to your self.

the 19th amendment did not give women the right to vote, although that is what public educators will tell you. Read it carefully...

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


It deny's the gov't, both federal and state, the power to restrict a citizens right to vote based on sex. It does not grant women the right, they were born with the right to decide their own fate, just like every other citizen of this country.
Nobody has any rights, only privilages. Call it what you want but when the chips are down, you will not have any rights to speak of. Don't think so? Do a little research on the "rights" of Japanese Americans during WWII.
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Old May 12th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #103
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Shoot them while they are invading and real honest to goodness law abiding americans wont have to carry around their "papers"

I agree but since they wont this laws is needed. I will stand next to you in support of shooting them as they ILLEGALLY cross our borders and invade our country. Maybe if we have more people stand up and support border security the rest of America wont keep losing our freedoms.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
Calling me a moron won't prove your point, or defeat mine.

I was not condoning breaking the law and landing yourself in jail. I am talking about nullification and sucession at the state level against the federal government's unconstitutional laws. It has had mixed results in the past, but is a valid form of civil disobedience against the federal government. However the individual can also sucede from the states, it's called emmigration, voting with your feet. So please keep your jail cell fantasy to your self.

the 19th amendment did not give women the right to vote, although that is what public educators will tell you. Read it carefully...

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


It deny's the gov't, both federal and state, the power to restrict a citizens right to vote based on sex. It does not grant women the right, they were born with the right to decide their own fate, just like every other citizen of this country.
Emigration is voting with your feet? I'm pretty sure that just means to move anywhere but where you currently live. And before the 19th women could not vote. It was the 19th that gave them that right, they were not born with it as you see it. you really sound like one of those sovereign nation wackjobs
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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:49 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
And before the 19th women could not vote. It was the 19th that gave them that right, they were not born with it as you see it. you really sound like one of those sovereign nation wackjobs
Actually, the words he posted are structured such to say that the right always existed (since neither sex is mentioned) and that Congress was merely affirming it. I'm sure it was done that way to give the appearance that the country had not fucked it up in the first place.


I am a huge supporter of emigration. So much so that I keep a list of people whom I would not hesitate to assist with it.

Last edited by PävementPounder; May 13th, 2010 at 09:02 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:17 AM   #106
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a LEO CAN ask anyone, anytime, anywhere, anything, including for your ID, there is NO law anywhere that prohibits that including our 4th amendment




there are several laws that state you must carry your ID on you, i.e. driving, carrying a weapon, ect.

and no court will ever say an officer has to have probable cause to ask you anything, period. You should really get your facts right before you try an attempt to look smart
Oh they can ask any time they want--you dont have to provide.

And again laws that state you must carry while doing other things are different from walking down the road not breaking any laws which is all I've said all along. If you are not driving, carrying guns blah blah blah or breaking a law or LEO has no PC to stop you--YOU DONT.

And no no court will say that they have to a pc to ask but the US supreme court has said you dont have to answer--Terry vs Ohio---so as far as attempting to act smart please quote your sources that said you have to provide it. Your fine new law would change that in that if I didnt have ID I could now go to jail--Thus narrowing my rights--but again pass it--just like gun laws does nothing but make idiots feel better about things and get votes for people running. This will do nothing to stop illegal immigration.

Last edited by Tomahawk715; May 13th, 2010 at 11:23 AM.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:20 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
Emigration is voting with your feet? I'm pretty sure that just means to move anywhere but where you currently live.
Yes, to move elsewhere. If you don't like the laws in Michigan you move to Texas or whatever state has laws that you do agree with. Voting with your feet, if you don't like it and can't change it, then leave.


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And before the 19th women could not vote. It was the 19th that gave them that right, they were not born with it as you see it.
Your reading comprehension is dismal, please try reading it again.

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Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
you really sound like one of those sovereign nation wackjobs
Now I am a wackjob too? So you've now labeled me a "moronic sovereign nation wackjob". That has a nice ring to it. Do you always resort to name calling when you are defeated?

I'm sorry tried to educate you on the basics of your liberty, it was obviously a waste of time.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #108
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Oh they can ask any time they want--you dont have to provide.

And again laws that state you must carry while doing other things are different from walking down the road not breaking any laws which is all I've said all along. If you are not driving, carrying guns blah blah blah or breaking a law or LEO has no PC to stop you--YOU DONT.

And no no court will say that they have to a pc to ask but the US supreme court has said you dont have to answer--Terry vs Ohio---so as far as attempting to act smart please quote your sources that said you have to provide it. Your fine new law would change that in that if I didnt have ID I could now go to jail--Thus narrowing my rights--but again pass it--just like gun laws does nothing but make idiots feel better about things and get votes for people running. This will do nothing to stop illegal immigration.
??? that deals with search and siezure ???? and has nothing to do with your right not to answer...ever if the officer had PC and had made an arrest you still dont have to answer, case point Miranda v. Arizona and the 5th Amendment...its up the the prosecutor to prove the case against you, and that doesnt require you to say anything...
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by 3-foot View Post
Yes, to move elsewhere. If you don't like the laws in Michigan you move to Texas or whatever state has laws that you do agree with. Voting with your feet, if you don't like it and can't change it, then leave.




Your reading comprehension is dismal, please try reading it again.



Now I am a wackjob too? So you've now labeled me a "moronic sovereign nation wackjob". That has a nice ring to it. Do you always resort to name calling when you are defeated?

I'm sorry tried to educate you on the basics of your liberty, it was obviously a waste of time.
yes you make no sense at all
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Old May 13th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #110
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??? that deals with search and siezure ???? and has nothing to do with your right not to answer...ever if the officer had PC and had made an arrest you still dont have to answer, case point Miranda v. Arizona and the 5th Amendment...its up the the prosecutor to prove the case against you, and that doesnt require you to say anything...
It most certainly does deal with your right not to answer. The two quotes I gave were from that decision. If you are approached by LEO they can ASK for your ID. If you choose not to speak and walk away they cannot SIEZE you unless they have PC or you have committed a crime or your driving carrying gun or some other valid reason to hold you. BUT if I'm not doing anything but standing on a street corner minding my own business I dont have to provide ID which is what I've been arguing this whole time. Or as I said they have a reason they check me and I'm ok I can leave but still I dont have to have ID in hand--they can ID me in other ways as has been stated by others. Under this law they would be allowed to SIEZE you UNTIL they determine your status. Miranda is POST arrest. After you have been siezed you have the rights granted miranda.

Per the US Supreme Court:

The Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures, made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, "protects people, not places," and therefore applies as much to the citizen on the streets as well as at home or elsewhere.

Whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has "seized" that person within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.

Last edited by Tomahawk715; May 13th, 2010 at 12:46 PM. Reason: readded Supreme Court info for those that didnt read first time
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Old May 13th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #111
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accosts an individual

The officer approached the subject and askd him for ID!!!! Thats how he accosted him. The court then determined if the SIEZURE (since he was not allowed to leave after being asked) was valid.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Tomahawk715 View Post
It most certainly does deal with your right not to answer. The two quotes I gave were from that decision. If you are approached by LEO they can ASK for your ID. If you choose not to speak and walk away they cannot SIEZE you unless they have PC or you have committed a crime or your driving carrying gun or some other valid reason to hold you. BUT if I'm not doing anything but standing on a street corner minding my own business I dont have to provide ID which is what I've been arguing this whole time. Or as I said they have a reason they check me and I'm ok I can leave but still I dont have to have ID in hand--they can ID me in other ways as has been stated by others. Under this law they would be allowed to SIEZE you UNTIL they determine your status. Miranda is POST arrest. After you have been siezed you have the rights granted miranda.

Per the US Supreme Court:

The Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures, made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, "protects people, not places," and therefore applies as much to the citizen on the streets as well as at home or elsewhere.

Whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has "seized" that person within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.
Walking away and not saying anything means your up to something and would most likely give PC.I think You should try this shit You say and tell us what happens.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #113
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Walking away and not saying anything means your up to something and would most likely give PC.I think You should try this shit You say and tell us what happens.
Actually the supreme court specifically said refusing to respond or walking away in and of itself DID NOT amount to PC. It could be used in a total calculation but those acts themselves did not meet the requirement to sieze a person.

Seriously--read a book. Yourself and a few others need to get their legal information from law school or law books--not watching Matlock and CSI or google searches.

And if you have been reading my responses I've said I would supply ID to LEO and respond to questions but that is my right to do so--and I do it because I'm a productive citizen who wants to be part of the solution not pass foolish laws which fail to address the problems.
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Old May 13th, 2010, 11:26 PM   #114
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I think you are confusing the word siezure for the more appropriate word detain. If the police take your bag of weed, that's a siezure. If the place stop you for a few minutes and ask questions, that's being detained. If the cops find the bag of weed on you and take you to jail, that's arrested.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 12:52 AM   #115
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I think you are confusing the word siezure for the more appropriate word detain. If the police take your bag of weed, that's a siezure. If the place stop you for a few minutes and ask questions, that's being detained. If the cops find the bag of weed on you and take you to jail, that's arrested.
Wikipedia disagrees:

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The Amendment also protects against unreasonable seizure of their persons, including a brief detention.
Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
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Old May 14th, 2010, 05:46 AM   #116
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Oh my god. Who CARES? If a police officer asks for your I.D. Show him your fucking I.D.! Takes two seconds, and both you and him will have a much smoother day ahead of you because you chose to be courteous, instead of being one of those fucking morons that start spouting constitutional rights just because they can.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 08:02 AM   #117
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In practice you are correct and I do show my ID when asked. No use sorting such things out in court--even if your right--after you have landed your butt in jail. And generally LEO is going to have PC or some reason to want to talk to you when they approach you.

This discussion revolves around this new law that has the potential to change that for no good reason. Again there are currently people I know who are putting themselves in harms way overseas and here in this country to defend those ideals. I think its important that people think about these things and not be mislead by polititions and information from people who claim ( as has been done here) they dont have these rights. For the most part I dont join discussions in this area of the board because I dont care about the issues being discussed. But when it comes to my rights I do care.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 09:11 AM   #118
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I read that somewhere after my post. I stand corrected.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 09:52 AM   #119
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This discussion revolves around this new law that has the potential to change that for no good reason.
Are you really suggesting that curbing the uncontrolled flow of illegal immigrants into the country which we end up bearing the burden of supporting through our taxes is not a good reason? Because that sounds pretty ridiculous.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 12:13 PM   #120
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Muck the Fexicans!
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