Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 10th, 2010, 10:17 AM   #41
gigbag
Rust never sleeps !
 
gigbag's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12-06-09
Location: Warren
Posts: 580
iTrader: (11)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
You do know, that with over 10,000 Federal, State, and Local Laws/Ordinances on the books that you can reasonably be found guilty of SOMETHING without resorting to fabricating evidence?

While I agree that we need to step up efforts at defending our borders, I am curious how you would propose going about cleaning up the 12 million or so current illegals we have on our streets, committing murders, kidnappings, drug crime, etc. without an ID Requirement.

We are a global economy now, and we have HUGE unprotected borders. In this day and age it is reasonable to expect a person to carry some form of ID, be it driver's license, state issued ID Card or passport if for no other reason than to expedite investigations or notify next of kin...

Imagine if every traffic stop, or loitering case turned into a 45 minute transport + identification investigation scenario...

Make no mistake, I am no more a fan of the Feds possessing, tracking and data-mining personal information than the next guy - and quite honestly at times would relish going "off the grid" but I am just as much of a fan of seeing MS13 gangs rounded up and taken off of our streets, and NOT paying for illegals to suckle at the tit of the US' Socialized Entitlement programs.

Ditto !
gigbag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #42
XXXJ
Desert Rat
 
XXXJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-09-07
Location: Memphis, Mi
Posts: 5,432
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
they most certaintaly can
Can you back that up?

On another note-
Looks like the poll is spot on!!
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-bill-20100510

Quote:
Would you support an immigration bill in MIchigan similiar to that in Arizona?

Yes 85%
No 14%
__________________
If I didn't think with my penis, I wouldn't think at all

I hope I am not a racist, I mean I drive fast, But I am not specialized at it.
XXXJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 12:14 PM   #43
RyeBread
Catch the wave
 
RyeBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Fenton
Posts: 7,936
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXJ View Post
Can you back that up?
The Michigan Court of Appeals already has:

http://www.michbar.org/opinions/appe...2704/21862.pdf

Quote:
In the course of the investigatory stop the officer may request identification and may act to reasonably secure his own safety.
We already know they need very, very, very little to initiate an investigatory stop/interview.
RyeBread is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #44
XXXJ
Desert Rat
 
XXXJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-09-07
Location: Memphis, Mi
Posts: 5,432
iTrader: (10)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
The Michigan Court of Appeals already has:

http://www.michbar.org/opinions/appe...2704/21862.pdf



We already know they need very, very, very little to initiate an investigatory stop/interview.
I was asking because I have been told there is no requirement to carry ID in Michigan.

I wasn't calling anybody out, I just don't know.
__________________
If I didn't think with my penis, I wouldn't think at all

I hope I am not a racist, I mean I drive fast, But I am not specialized at it.
XXXJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #45
RyeBread
Catch the wave
 
RyeBread's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-08-05
Location: Fenton
Posts: 7,936
iTrader: (2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXJ View Post
I was asking because I have been told there is no requirement to carry ID in Michigan.

I wasn't calling anybody out, I just don't know.
I don't know myself if there is a specific law/requirement currently on the books in Michigan that specifically requires one to carry it.

That being said, the appeals court has upheld the right of an officer to ask for ID, and/or take steps necessary to confirm ID.

My free time is worth significantly more than what I get paid due to how little I have - so that being said it is at a minimum in my financial interest to always carry ID so that I am not unduly detained should an officer desire to know my identity. *shrug*
RyeBread is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #46
trailranger
RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
 
trailranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-19-10
Location: clio michigan
Posts: 553
iTrader: (0)
i thought you had to have your id or you get a ticket now.
trailranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 01:58 PM   #47
Blksnshn69
Senior Member
 
Blksnshn69's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04-15-08
Location: Muskegon Michigan
Posts: 401
iTrader: (2)
Am I the only one that is all for racial profiling. I've never seen a bunch of white or black people chillin outside home depot hoping for work, Or in a field on one of the beaner buggy's. I don't seem to have any problems picking out the illegals. If they meet any of the above criteria or possibly have a 10 year old translator, they might be illegal.
Blksnshn69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 02:09 PM   #48
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,302
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Center Hancho View Post
they most certaintaly can
They can ask for it, but they cannot haul you off to jail just for not having it. They have to have reason to believe that you have done something wrong.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #49
ovrlnd
HURL SCOUTS
 
ovrlnd's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-23-07
Location: Westland, Michigan
Posts: 10,003
iTrader: (14)
Send a message via AIM to ovrlnd
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyeBread View Post
You do know, that with over 10,000 Federal, State, and Local Laws/Ordinances on the books that you can reasonably be found guilty of SOMETHING without resorting to fabricating evidence?

While I agree that we need to step up efforts at defending our borders, I am curious how you would propose going about cleaning up the 12 million or so current illegals we have on our streets, committing murders, kidnappings, drug crime, etc. without an ID Requirement.

We are a global economy now, and we have HUGE unprotected borders. In this day and age it is reasonable to expect a person to carry some form of ID, be it driver's license, state issued ID Card or passport if for no other reason than to expedite investigations or notify next of kin...

Imagine if every traffic stop, or loitering case turned into a 45 minute transport + identification investigation scenario...

Make no mistake, I am no more a fan of the Feds possessing, tracking and data-mining personal information than the next guy - and quite honestly at times would relish going "off the grid" but I am just as much of a fan of seeing MS13 gangs rounded up and taken off of our streets, and NOT paying for illegals to suckle at the tit of the US' Socialized Entitlement programs.
a way to round up those "blending in" would be via hospitals & doctors when they come in for care. BAM!

and before the pansy rainbows here start bashing me and introducing the question of tourists, if a tourist needed medical attention they would identify themselves as such.
ovrlnd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #50
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,302
iTrader: (9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blksnshn69 View Post
Am I the only one that is all for racial profiling. I've never seen a bunch of white or black people chillin outside home depot hoping for work, Or in a field on one of the beaner buggy's. I don't seem to have any problems picking out the illegals. If they meet any of the above criteria or possibly have a 10 year old translator, they might be illegal.
I'm not in favor of racial profiling, but what you described does not sound like racial profiling to me. If there were whites and blacks with the hispanics outside of Home Depot hoping for work, and they only asked the Hispanics for ID that would be racial profiling. The same with the "beaner buggy".

What I don't want to see is for "looking hispanic" to become just cause for the police to stop people, and "look hispanic and not having ID" to become reason for the police to haul people to jail.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #51
Blazin_wheeler
turtles like me
 
Blazin_wheeler's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-22-09
Location: Milford IN 46542
Posts: 4,648
iTrader: (7)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I'm not in favor of racial profiling, but what you described does not sound like racial profiling to me. If there were whites and blacks with the hispanics outside of Home Depot hoping for work, and they only asked the Hispanics for ID that would be racial profiling. The same with the "beaner buggy".

What I don't want to see is for "looking hispanic" to become just cause for the police to stop people, and "look hispanic and not having ID" to become reason for the police to haul people to jail.
what's the big deal? they've been doing it to black people for years. j/k
Blazin_wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #52
RangerXtreme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-18-09
Location: U.P. of MI
Posts: 209
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk715 View Post
I am a bit concerned about moving towards communist russia where you have to have "your papers" with you at all times.
Not even close. It would be immigrants, not everyone.

Also, how many people realize the fact that Arizona's and Michigan's [possible] imigration laws just enforce the federal immigration law that was put in place 70+ years ago by FDR?
RangerXtreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 06:47 PM   #53
Tomahawk715
Senior Member
 
Tomahawk715's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-04-07
Location: Black River/MI
Posts: 552
iTrader: (16)
No state can take away rights granted to you by the Constitution of the United States of America.

If a LEO stops you and you are not allowed to leave you have been seized--So says the US Supreme Court. LEO needs to articulate a reason for stopping you or you have to have committed a crime. Period. They cant just do it cause they feel like it. I quoted the court in my earlier post--that decision is on the books and still stands.

As far as all the laws on the books--I've never made the statement here that if you were violating the law they couldnt ask you for it. But if Fed or Local LEO are making shit up then they are violating the law.

And heres a novel idea--enforce the laws on the books.
Tomahawk715 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 06:52 PM   #54
Soy_bomb
Web Wheeling!
 
Soy_bomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-13-07
Location: Allendale, Mi
Posts: 1,389
iTrader: (0)
This is all I can think about right now.




But in all seriousness I'm for the bill. I'm a law abiding citizen. I have nothing to worry about.
Soy_bomb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 06:53 PM   #55
disorder xj
Happy,happy,joy,joy
 
disorder xj's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-13-06
Location: Mio MI.
Posts: 2,899
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk715 View Post
Without a photo id to confirm that how ya gonna know--I mean I know my brothers info--and we have same physical description.

Just dont think people who are jaywalking or dont have their seatbelt on--"who cant prove their legal status" should be carted off to jail.

Again just playing devils advocate here--I dont believe in welfare or the myriad of public programs we have.

I also believe if 100 russians a day were streaming over the bering strait there would be people screamin for the military to be sent up there to shoot them---just dont like the slope upon which we are treading.

Enforce the laws on the books--and set up a zone like they have between north and south korea--and defend it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk715 View Post
No state can take away rights granted to you by the Constitution of the United States of America.

If a LEO stops you and you are not allowed to leave you have been seized--So says the US Supreme Court. LEO needs to articulate a reason for stopping you or you have to have committed a crime. Period. They cant just do it cause they feel like it. I quoted the court in my earlier post--that decision is on the books and still stands.

As far as all the laws on the books--I've never made the statement here that if you were violating the law they couldnt ask you for it. But if Fed or Local LEO are making shit up then they are violating the law.

And heres a novel idea--enforce the laws on the books.
Here I put it in red for You again .

Since when is jaywalking or a seatbelt ticket not breaking the law?
disorder xj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #56
disorder xj
Happy,happy,joy,joy
 
disorder xj's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-13-06
Location: Mio MI.
Posts: 2,899
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soy_bomb View Post
This is all I can think about right now.

YouTube- south park-they took our jobs!!!



But in all seriousness I'm for the bill. I'm a law abiding citizen. I have nothing to worry about.
That's My point is if You have nothing to hide ,Who cares if You have to carry ID.
disorder xj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #57
Tomahawk715
Senior Member
 
Tomahawk715's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-04-07
Location: Black River/MI
Posts: 552
iTrader: (16)
And I do carry my ID--and I'll show it when Im asked--I'm not hiding anything so I've got no worries and would rather keep LEO, the public and myself safe.

But again I see no reason to pass a law that will only affect law abiding americans and take their rights away. The illegals will just carry fake ID.

And what are you gonna do when you catch them--ship them home--guess what they are just going to jump the border again--check the stats on repeat arrests for being illegal.

So let me ask you this--if the president of Iran told his people to illegally go to the US--and hundreds a day flew to mexico or canada and then crossed illegally this wouldnt worry anyone here?? Its a border--protect it.
Tomahawk715 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #58
Tomahawk715
Senior Member
 
Tomahawk715's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10-04-07
Location: Black River/MI
Posts: 552
iTrader: (16)
Quote:
Originally Posted by disorder xj View Post
That's My point is if You have nothing to hide ,Who cares if You have to carry ID.

Well if you have nothing to hide then you wont mind if the Feds take your photo, fingerprints and a DNA sample.

And highlight that crap a hundred times--those are civil infractions!!!! Again you have no idea why I'm pointing that out to you. So did you find that law that says I have to carry ID??

The court ruling he quoted above the officers had probable cause to ask for it. It is not a requirement to carry ID.
Tomahawk715 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 07:11 PM   #59
Soy_bomb
Web Wheeling!
 
Soy_bomb's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02-13-07
Location: Allendale, Mi
Posts: 1,389
iTrader: (0)
I still don't see how this is taking any of my rights away. My ID is always on me anyway.
Soy_bomb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #60
disorder xj
Happy,happy,joy,joy
 
disorder xj's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-13-06
Location: Mio MI.
Posts: 2,899
iTrader: (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomahawk715 View Post
Well if you have nothing to hide then you wont mind if the Feds take your photo, fingerprints and a DNA sample.

And highlight that crap a hundred times--those are civil infractions!!!! Again you have no idea why I'm pointing that out to you. So did you find that law that says I have to carry ID??

The court ruling he quoted above the officers had probable cause to ask for it. It is not a requirement to carry ID.
A civil infaction is still breaking the law ,they just don't come with jail time.


The following is a brief description of a traffic and nontraffic civil infraction case. There is no specific information available in this Self-Help Center to aid you with the entire legal process.

A traffic civil infraction case begins when a law enforcement officer issues a Uniform Law Citation (ticket) claiming that you have violated the Michigan Vehicle Code, or a local ordinance (local law) that is similar to the Michigan Vehicle Code, for an offense for which the penalty does not include a jail sentence. The law enforcement officer is considered the complainant and is issuing the ticket for the plaintiff. The plaintiff is either the State of Michigan or a city, village, township, or other local government unit. If you receive a ticket, you are considered the offender (or the defendant).

A nontraffic civil infraction case begins when a law encorcement officer issues a Uniform Law Citation (ticket) claiming that you have violated a state civil infraction law or municipal civil infraction ordinance (local law) for which the penalty does not include a jail sentence. The law enforcement officer is considered the complainant and is issuing the ticket for the plaintiff. The plaintiff is either the State of Michigan or a city, village, township, or other local government unit. If you receive a ticket, you are considered the offender (or the defendant). Other authorized persons may also issue nontraffic civil infraction tickets.
disorder xj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:01 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.36373 seconds with 51 queries