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Old November 20th, 2011, 05:40 AM   #1
cerial
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Default Oil at extreme angles

A while back I was looking for a way to provide oil to the engine at extreme angles. It involved a pump and a lot of other complicated parts that simply would not work.
Got to thinking about it again this morning and tossed out all the complicated junk.

Excuse the bad sketch.


What I needed to do was get rid of the pickup screen. The pump pickup tube is split in 4 directions at the bottom which goes to the 4 parts of the pan while not getting in the way of the rotating assembly, Then I made a 4 way divert-er valve that has balls with a rods attached to them. The tough/flexible cable runs inside a tube to a float just outside the inlet of the end of the tube.

How it works is by suction and floatation.
When the vehicle sways to the drivers side the oil level does also. The float on the drivers side raises and at the same time the float on the passenger side drops. When the passenger side ball is pulled by the float it allows oil to flow around it and can not be pulled to the point of sealing off due to a stop. When the drivers side drops the ball is pulled against the divert-er by the pumps pressure providing a seal so no air gets pulled into the pump.


The fail would be if the cable broke at a extreme angle. If the rod broke the ball would be pulled against the divert-er. Under normal driving conditions 3 lines would be supplying oil at the same time. So, this would not be a issue. Under extreme angles though it would lead to a instant loss of oil pressure. But, there would not be anything entering the engine because the rod can not get past the ball.



I do not see why this would not work on extreme angles. Still may be one of those looks good on paper/been up to long ideas.So feedback would be nice.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 05:49 AM   #2
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Here's the problem. If you are at an extreme enough angle to lose oil pressure, you are also at an extreme enough angle that the drainage doesn't follow the proper path back to the oilpan. I have flopped more than once and still had oil pressure but could not keep the engine running because I was getting oil into my downhill side cylinders and loading up.

IMO, all that claptrap isn't worth the effort.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:04 AM   #3
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1 word. accumulator. you won't be sorry. i stole this from bill vista's article on pirate as i was just reading it last night.

The purpose of the accumulator is to store a volume or "charge" of pressurized oil when the engine is operating normally so that it can release this pressurized oil to lubricate the engine if normal oil pressure should drop for any reason. This makes it a perfect addition to any offroad rig and invaluable insurance against engine damage that can be caused by flops, rolls, steep climbs, or off-camber driving. How long the engine is protected from oil pressure loss depends on the size of the accumulator used, engine size, and RPM. I chose the biggest available, which holds 3 quarts of pressurized oil. Anecdotally, this will provide from 15 to 60 seconds of running time with total loss of oil pressure (e.g. upside-down with the oil pickup completely uncovered). This should provide plenty of time to get the situation under control and/or shut down the engine before engine damage occurs. However, an accumulator is not designed for, nor will it allow you to drive for extended periods of time with no oil pressure - like when the rubber is sky-side up. Nothing can help you with that except perhaps an aerobatic-aircraft-style dry-sump system. Even the more common automotive-style dry-sump systems (like those on LS7-equipped Corvettes) won't do it, as they are designed for oil control under hard braking and high lateral G loads from cornering. If you look into the complexity of fitting a real aircraft-style dry-sump system that will truly allow you to run the engine indefinitely at any angle (including highly specialized internal engine modifications, multiple scavenge pumps, gimballed tanks, etc.); and realize the cost of such a system quickly outstrips the cost of the engine in the first place; you may well decide, as I did, that a decent accumulator and learning to keep the rubber side down might just be your best option.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:41 AM   #4
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accumulator X2. Accumulators work great you get about 15sec of oil pressure at any angle. But jeeps are tested to 60% (31deg) grade for oil starvation. How far you planing on going? Maybe it's time for a dry sump??
http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-298492.aspx
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak450r View Post
1 word. accumulator. you won't be sorry. i stole this from bill vista's article on pirate as i was just reading it last night.

The purpose of the accumulator is to store a volume or "charge" of pressurized oil when the engine is operating normally so that it can release this pressurized oil to lubricate the engine if normal oil pressure should drop for any reason. This makes it a perfect addition to any offroad rig and invaluable insurance against engine damage that can be caused by flops, rolls, steep climbs, or off-camber driving. How long the engine is protected from oil pressure loss depends on the size of the accumulator used, engine size, and RPM. I chose the biggest available, which holds 3 quarts of pressurized oil. Anecdotally, this will provide from 15 to 60 seconds of running time with total loss of oil pressure (e.g. upside-down with the oil pickup completely uncovered). This should provide plenty of time to get the situation under control and/or shut down the engine before engine damage occurs. However, an accumulator is not designed for, nor will it allow you to drive for extended periods of time with no oil pressure - like when the rubber is sky-side up. Nothing can help you with that except perhaps an aerobatic-aircraft-style dry-sump system. Even the more common automotive-style dry-sump systems (like those on LS7-equipped Corvettes) won't do it, as they are designed for oil control under hard braking and high lateral G loads from cornering. If you look into the complexity of fitting a real aircraft-style dry-sump system that will truly allow you to run the engine indefinitely at any angle (including highly specialized internal engine modifications, multiple scavenge pumps, gimballed tanks, etc.); and realize the cost of such a system quickly outstrips the cost of the engine in the first place; you may well decide, as I did, that a decent accumulator and learning to keep the rubber side down might just be your best option.
Another reason I went with a 350 instead of the 225 Buick(collecting dust). That accumulator is a direct bolt in and is what I will end up doing.


Thought this was way to simplistic to work.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 07:43 AM   #6
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Hate to bore you with the whole video but at the 11:30 mark I had oil pressure and you can see what the oil falling wrong did to performance.

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Old November 20th, 2011, 08:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
Hate to bore you with the whole video but at the 11:30 mark I had oil pressure and you can see what the oil falling wrong did to performance.

Sault Trussel Offroad Park Nov 2011 - YouTube
Definately not a bore.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 08:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg38 View Post
accumulator X2. Accumulators work great you get about 15sec of oil pressure at any angle. But jeeps are tested to 60% (31deg) grade for oil starvation. How far you planing on going? Maybe it's time for a dry sump??
http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-298492.aspx
It is more about oiling while descending/climbing steep grades then laying on my door.
You know the kind that you lay on your stinger, need to gas it to get traction before the stinger digs in to much and you end up on your roof.

Going to be around 85" WB and 70" wide. I am building it so that it can tip and flop without to much issue safety wise or no serious damage due to the double cage design.

The doors are 14" longer then a TJ door. With a 70" outside tire to outside tire on a 60" wide body if I do do a sideways roll I would probably stop on the door.

I could see 60 seconds flying by by after a sideways roll that would leave me on my door. I am just trying to save the engine in that case.

I will just stick with the accumulator and maybe some kind of easy to hit engine kill.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 08:56 AM   #9
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I lost oil pressure while vertical a couple times. Since then, I run one extra quart of oil and have never lost oil pressure while vertical since.
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Old November 20th, 2011, 09:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Silver Bullet View Post
Definately not a bore.
Great video had a couple hard slaps there. Yea, the engine just said FU were not moving at that point.

Toss a electric motor in there and go at it again.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 04:59 AM   #11
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After another sleepless night I have come up with a way to keep fluid at the sump level at all times. It does not involve any stupid trap doors, dropping your pan to the ground, or having it hold 13 quarts. It involves good old fashion pressure and fluid dynamics.

Basically you need a secondary tank the same size with more fluid in it then the oil pan. In this tank you have 4 cylinders with compressed gas behind them forming something like this.
..|
-O-
..|

In your oil pan you have the same amount of cylinders under pressure in the same configuration.

To make it work you simply route pressurized lines from the secondary tank(mounted higher) in red to the lower tank(oil pan) in yellow.

Lets take a hard right for example.
The fluid in the upper tank is pushed against the right cylinder.
....|
>-O->
....|


The pressure is pushed through the line and pushes the right cylinder on the oil pan towards the left cylinder. Because the increased amount of fluid is pushing harder on the upper cylinder the lower right cylinder has no choice but to move in the opposite direction. This forces the oil towards the sump.

....|
<-O-<
....|


Because we are dealing with pressure the action is instantaneous. As long as you give the sump enough room for the cylinders to push the oil around it this will work.

You do not even need the upper and lower pan to be the same size. As long as the upper tank has more fluid in it it will force the lower cylinder to move. Or the cylinders are smaller or... etc. Play with the numbers and such to see what works for you.


This means you can run a smaller oil pan and get increased ground clearance for those taking notes.


Is this idiot talking about putting freaking cylinders down by the rocks?

Ok I admit even with the higher clearance and some major protection you still run the chance of damaging this setup in a crawler. That can be said about anything on a crawler really.

But, in every other freaking automotive application from drag racing to your daily driver this setup will keep the oil where it needs to be without ground clearance or having balls or flaps in your pan.

Is it perfect?
It is far from perfect your adding a component and weight and added maintenance. If one of the lines blows it will force the lower cylinder to retract and could lead to the sump running dry. Of course compared to a accusump system where a blown line means engine death, a possible fire, and less then a minute of protection when it is working. A bit of leaking nitrogen does not seem all that bad.



As far as the oil being uneven in the heads. There is no easy fix to that unless you pressurize the engine or feed every lifter.

Even a multi stage dry sump only has one pressurized feed line to the engine.

This created quite a head scratchier. I have a method that could work. It adds a lot of extra parts though.

You need to T your pressurized line off the pump and run a external line to a manifold that then splits off into how ever many lines and feed the heads that way. To keep the oil universal all around the engine you need to run ports that only allow so much pressure. Lets say 10 psi per port. You will need to put the ports low enough so they can pool and block off the pressure under all but extreme angles. The fluid will go to the path of least resistance so at those angles the the oil will head to the areas that are dry. This requires a massive amount of head work, a birds nest of lines, and a considerable amount of risk.

Most of the guys running caddy engines (like the 472/500) do this in order to run higher rpm's outside of what the designers planned on when first creating the engine. During these rpm's the rearmost parts of the engine runs dry and this burns out bearings quickly. The external line birds next method is what most the pro builders do to fix that problem in one form or another. They do not do the ports or pooling thing though as it is not needed for the angles they run.

If you stop your rig on a steep angle like that then allow the oil to to drain down of course your not going to feed the heads unless you do the birds next method.

Of course you could have simply pulled it back after taking pictures, started the engine on level ground, then tried hitting it again, and would have saved the engine.



I know I'm stupid for thinking differently. The idea of paying 5-10k for a dry sump system when this system could be made for a few hundred bucks seems stupid to me. I could be wrong, it could have a major flaw that my half awake butt overlooked. Just thought I would toss it out there and see what people end up doing with it.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 05:10 AM   #12
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Can someone please move this under General tech please. I must have posted it in FAQ 2 years ago by accident.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 07:06 AM   #13
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Wtf is wrong with you? I thought you want a bullet proof rig now you have some oil pressure system that is more complicated than the whole engine. Just run an accumulator. If that's not enough run 4 accumulators.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 07:35 AM   #14
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Darwinism at its finest.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 08:00 AM   #15
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I think it could work
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