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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #41
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I figure that until a fetus can function on it's own, OUTSIDE of a woman's body, then it is a part of her body.

I'm all for the choice, though my moral beliefs disagree with abortion in 'most' cases.
So why does a Killer get two counts of murder in our legal system?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #42
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It's easy to say "make them have it and own up to their responsibilities" but that isn't what happens. They have the kid, and we the taxpayers end up footing the bill. I say give them the abortion, but take their reproductive organs at the same time. Problem solved Just like any other toy you play irresponsibly with, it gets taken away.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:32 AM   #43
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So why does a Killer get two counts of murder in our legal system?
I believe it is more of a double whammy for the convicted killer. The mother wanted the baby and the killer took both lives.....so double murder.

As far as an abortion doctor goes he is performing a service requested by the mother to end an unborn life as by law allows.

It is a choice no matter how you look at killing an abortion doctor.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #44
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I just had an abortion








No wait, it was just a really, really large dump.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #45
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I believe it is more of a double whammy for the convicted killer. The mother wanted the baby and the killer took both lives.....so double murder.

As far as an abortion doctor goes he is performing a service requested by the mother to end an unborn life as by law allows.

It is a choice no matter how you look at killing an abortion doctor.
What if she gets killed on her way to get an abortion?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:25 PM   #46
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What if she gets killed on her way to get an abortion?
Classic
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MISHOWJEEPER View Post
It's easy to say "make them have it and own up to their responsibilities" but that isn't what happens. They have the kid, and we the taxpayers end up footing the bill. I say give them the abortion, but take their reproductive organs at the same time. Problem solved Just like any other toy you play irresponsibly with, it gets taken away.
you beat me to this. Allow the abortion but you giv up your right to reproduce. If you force a 15 yr old to have the baby your just make trailer park owners happy
Also your leaving out another point. the abortion has to happen with the mothers choice no one elses and in a very specific time frame. you cannot compare murder to this no matter how bad u want to. two completely different things.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:49 PM   #48
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So why does a Killer get two counts of murder in our legal system?
Simple, because it is assumed that the mother did not want an abortion. In that case a "life" was taken without the consent of the person making the decisions for it.

Also in response to Lotusexige- If you honestly think that there is no ethical foundation supporting the womans right to choose, you know now of what you speak, desperately need to a) take a medical/ bio ethics course or b) find a medical/ bio ethics book. Do it now.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #49
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What if she gets killed on her way to get an abortion?
One of two positions could be taken here. In the first the mother already made the choice to get an abortion so therefore the killer would only be charged with one murder.

The second, as the mother had made that choice, she had not actually acted upon it. I am sure there are people who while in the office for the appointment, change their mind. This would be in support of the double murder charge as the mother had not yet terminated the pregnancy, the intent to do so does not equal the act. I would think the second school of thought would prevail.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:22 PM   #50
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So are we to look at the abortion on the same lines as capitol punishment, an accepted way to kill somebody?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 05:36 PM   #51
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So are we to look at the abortion on the same lines as capitol punishment, an accepted way to kill somebody?
Yes.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #52
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Abortion is murder. I have an idea... why not inconvence the women for a few more months and allow her to give the innocent child a chance at life and adopt the child to a family that would love to have a baby. Instead of going over seas and adopting a child from another country, nothing wrong with babies from foriegn counties. Just a thought and nobody dies.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #53
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Abortion is murder. I have an idea... why not inconvence the women for a few more months and allow her to give the innocent child a chance at life and adopt the child to a family that would love to have a baby. Instead of going over seas and adopting a child from another country, nothing wrong with babies from foriegn counties. Just a thought and nobody dies.
What you fail to realize is that not everyone feels that someone dies. You see the fetus as a living thing, others do not see it as such until it is viable. Until it is viable it is a parasite, sorry, it is.

Until it is viable you are placing the priority in the ethical debate on a parasite before a living, breathing, THINKING, human.

Yes I am pragmatic, no, don't feel sorry for me.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:37 PM   #54
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What you fail to realize is that not everyone feels that someone dies. You see the fetus as a living thing, others do not see it as such until it is viable. Until it is viable it is a parasite, sorry, it is.

Until it is viable you are placing the priority in the ethical debate on a parasite before a living, breathing, THINKING, human.

Yes I am pragmatic, no, don't feel sorry for me.
Once they are born they are still very parasitic, a lot of them until they're in their 20's
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by jeepinRRT View Post
What you fail to realize is that not everyone feels that someone dies. You see the fetus as a living thing, others do not see it as such until it is viable. Until it is viable it is a parasite, sorry, it is.

Until it is viable you are placing the priority in the ethical debate on a parasite before a living, breathing, THINKING, human.

Yes I am pragmatic, no, don't feel sorry for me.
And when Exactly is it "Viable" and what gives anybody the right to decide that?

In Instances where the woman's life was/is going to be Threatened I think it should be a choice. Honestly. I would prefer they give birth or take it as far as they physically can. I would seriously admire a Woman who was raped and then raised the child and didn't give it away or get aborted. That would seem like the ultimate show of Making the best our of life. Of course, I don't want to say I agree with Rape though.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aber61 View Post
Abortion is murder. I have an idea... why not inconvence the women for a few more months and allow her to give the innocent child a chance at life and adopt the child to a family that would love to have a baby. Instead of going over seas and adopting a child from another country, nothing wrong with babies from foriegn counties. Just a thought and nobody dies.
The problem is that there would not be enough homes for these unwanted babies. So what happens to them then?
Also with that thinking what would happen to the father? Since the mother has to deal with this "inconvience", he should not get off without any consequences.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:53 PM   #57
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And when Exactly is it "Viable" and what gives anybody the right to decide that?

In Instances where the woman's life was/is going to be Threatened I think it should be a choice. Honestly. I would prefer they give birth or take it as far as they physically can. I would seriously admire a Woman who was raped and then raised the child and didn't give it away or get aborted. That would seem like the ultimate show of Making the best our of life. Of course, I don't want to say I agree with Rape though.
viability is defined by the fetal development. If it can survive outside of the uterus, it is viable. With modern medicine this is about 23 weeks +- 3-4 days. This is dependent on the lung development. Up until this point, we cannot do a damn thing for them. Even the ones at 23 weeks we can do little for, many develop BPD and end up being blind. This is due to ROP (retinopathy of prematurity) formerly known as retrolentalfibroplasia.

Even at this point of the infant has a poor prognosis it is the mothers call to continue or forgo treatment.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:55 PM   #58
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My wife brought this to my attention and I don't know why there are two sets of rules . . . I therefore bring it to the masses.

If you kill a Woman with Child you get charged with 2 counts of murder. So, why is abortion not consider murder by the same system that will convict a Killer of murdering an unborn baby when the mother dies? How is an abortion Doctor any different then a the convicted killer?
wonder the same thing.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:10 PM   #59
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The problem is that there would not be enough homes for these unwanted babies. So what happens to them then?
Also with that thinking what would happen to the father? Since the mother has to deal with this "inconvience", he should not get off without any consequences.
There wouldnt be? How do you know there wouldn't be?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #60
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There wouldnt be? How do you know there wouldn't be?
Ya because all the foster homes are empty now.
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