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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #61
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did you have the foresight to test all of this before toyota's problem because you are really smart?
I have no idea what the issue is with Toyota's not slowing down. I understand how there is no mechanical linkage between the shifter and the transmission, and how the ignition can't be turned off and all of the other electronic nannies to protect the vehicles from their drivers. I don't understand how electronic can keep hydraulic brakes from applying. With full braking capacity, I can't understand how 200 ft lbs. of torque can overcome braking force and still accelerate to 100 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense.

With a basic power brake hydraulic set-up, no ABS, engine with a throttle cable in a basic transportation car, assuming there is enough traction, the brakes should be able to slow down a car, if not come to a complete stop with the throttle wide open.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #62
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I have no idea what the issue is with Toyota's not slowing down. I understand how there is no mechanical linkage between the shifter and the transmission, and how the ignition can't be turned off and all of the other electronic nannies to protect the vehicles from their drivers. I don't understand how electronic can keep hydraulic brakes from applying. With full braking capacity, I can't understand how 200 ft lbs. of torque can overcome braking force and still accelerate to 100 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense.

With a basic power brake hydraulic set-up, no ABS, engine with a throttle cable in a basic transportation car, assuming there is enough traction, the brakes should be able to slow down a car, if not come to a complete stop with the throttle wide open.
You did not even come remotely close to answering my question. This thread has 61 posts, somewhere around 33% of them are yours....you should probably move along.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #63
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You did not even come remotely close to answering my question. This thread has 61 posts, somewhere around 33% of them are yours....you should probably move along.
I probably should, but I'm stuck at work late and bored.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:26 PM   #64
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That car was a stock LS1 with a stock trans. With street tires it would just start spinning and with drag tires it would push right though the brakes with a stock converter.

Other junk boxes Ive tried to do brake torques in same thing push or spin. FWD will just push through the fronts and drag the rears from a dead stop. If you are already moving and stay on the gas I doubt the brakes will over power the wheels until the wheels arent getting anymore power from the engine.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:27 PM   #65
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i know nothing about the prius. with that being said i do know a little bit about fords.

I dont know what kind of braking system toyota uses on the prius either. I was just thinking about the fords. and i know that the hybrid used regenerative braking.
and that the hcu controls the pressure in the system rather than in being controlled through the brake pedal. However i am not familiar with any safety features built into the hybrid braking system.

Now i dont believe regenerative braking would be enough to stop a car at wot. I have nothing to back that up, its just an opinion. if the hcu didn't apply pressure to the system and at wot the vacuum booster would loose vacuum after a couple pumps of the brake pedal. and the car would not stop. and i dont think anybody would have had their foot on the pedal for however long he was driving for, hell my leg gets tired after bleeding brakes.

again i have no idea how all this would tie into the prius. just my thoughts on using the brakes at wot will loose vacuum and not stop.

carry on.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I have no idea what the issue is with Toyota's not slowing down. I understand how there is no mechanical linkage between the shifter and the transmission, and how the ignition can't be turned off and all of the other electronic nannies to protect the vehicles from their drivers. I don't understand how electronic can keep hydraulic brakes from applying. With full braking capacity, I can't understand how 200 ft lbs. of torque can overcome braking force and still accelerate to 100 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense.

With a basic power brake hydraulic set-up, no ABS, engine with a throttle cable in a basic transportation car, assuming there is enough traction, the brakes should be able to slow down a car, if not come to a complete stop with the throttle wide open.
no power without vacuum which there is none at wot.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:30 PM   #67
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http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...o/4348506.html
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #68
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no power without vacuum which there is none at wot.
There is also no vacuum with the engine off. The brakes still apply though.....

The vacuum booster just assists...it doesn't completely prevent the master cylinder from pushing hydraulic fluid if there is no vacuum present.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:34 PM   #69
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I have no idea what the issue is with Toyota's not slowing down. I understand how there is no mechanical linkage between the shifter and the transmission, and how the ignition can't be turned off and all of the other electronic nannies to protect the vehicles from their drivers. I don't understand how electronic can keep hydraulic brakes from applying. With full braking capacity, I can't understand how 200 ft lbs. of torque can overcome braking force and still accelerate to 100 MPH. It just doesn't make any sense.

With a basic power brake hydraulic set-up, no ABS, engine with a throttle cable in a basic transportation car, assuming there is enough traction, the brakes should be able to slow down a car, if not come to a complete stop with the throttle wide open.
It is not just about torque. It is about converting mechanical energy into heat over time. For the car to stop all the engine’s horsepower output has to be converted into heat by the brakes. The brakes also have to convert all the inertial energy stored in the moving vehicle into heat. Put heat into the rotors faster than it can be dissipated and the brakes will overheat and fade. Then there are also all the variables of brake pad condition, rotor condition, brake fluid moisture, etc. It looks like many people react by pumping the brakes rather than standing.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #70
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It is not just about torque. It is about converting mechanical energy into heat over time. For the car to stop all the engine’s horsepower output has to be converted into heat by the brakes. The brakes also have to convert all the inertial energy stored in the moving vehicle into heat. Put heat into the rotors faster than it can be dissipated and the brakes will overheat and fade. Then there are also all the variables of brake pad condition, rotor condition, brake fluid moisture, etc. It looks like many people react by pumping the brakes rather than standing.
Very true, which is why my 100 MPH scenario was a really bad one to argue with. A vehicle like a Corvette would probably have no issue with braking capacity but other vehicles might.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:37 PM   #71
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There is also no vacuum with the engine off. The brakes still apply though.....

The vacuum booster just assists...it doesn't completely prevent the master cylinder from pushing hydraulic fluid if there is no vacuum present.
go drive any car. put the pedal at wot pump the brakes and try to stop. I guarantee you will not or it will be so hard its not funny.

i have also driven cars with bad and disconnected boosters. and with the motor at idle its even hard to stop. now give it some gas. and your not stoping

i have done this, and no not because of the toyota problems.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:39 PM   #72
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go drive any car. put the pedal at wot pump the brakes and try to stop.

i have done this, and no not because of the toyota problems.
I'm not talking about pumping the brakes....why would you do that? I'm talking about having the throttle to the floor, and pushing the brake pedal to the floor and keeping it there.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #73
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I'm not talking about pumping the brakes....why would you do that? I'm talking about having the throttle to the floor, and pushing the brake pedal to the floor and keeping it there.
I understand that. My point was, after 20 mins of driving im sure this guy didnt just hit the brakes once and hold it. if i tried that my leg would fall off.

now if the car was truly at wot the whole time the booster would never have regained vacuum. and after a few attempts at stopping the pedal would feel like a brick wall and pretty much not do anything.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:08 PM   #74
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If engines can overcome brakes, then brake torquing would be an impossible feat to achieve with a vehicle.
go brake torque anything except a RWD vehicle and see what happens.

Even most RWD vehicles will be able to push through brakes once the vehicle is rolling.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #75
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go brake torque anything except a RWD vehicle and see what happens.

Even most RWD vehicles will be able to push through brakes once the vehicle is rolling.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!!!

BTW I just said that.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #76
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On a stretch of road behind my work, I got up to about 55 MPH in second gear. 60 MPH is pretty much redline in 2nd gear. I kept the throttle to the floor, and put the brake to the floor. The car immediately started to slow down. The turbo was still hissing, and my boost gauge was still reading 15 psi, all the way until it started to bog in second gear and almost stall at about 15 MPH. I did the same thing with 1st gear wound out with the same results.

If the throttle would have closed because the brake pedal was pushed, the turbo still wouldn't have been making pressure. I don't think it would have came to a complete stop, but it still slowed the vehicle done a considerable amount.

300 ft lbs of torque, in second gear with the ratio is 1.952 with a 4.063 final drive to the front wheels and the brakes still slowed the vehicle down considerably.

Not saying the same will be true for all vehicles, but take it for what it's worth.

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; March 15th, 2010 at 08:06 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #77
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http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...man-error.html
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Old March 15th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #78
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douchemonkey, give it a rest.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #79
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douchemonkey, give it a rest.

I'm with this guy
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Old March 15th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #80
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douchemonkey, give it a rest.
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‘Brakes Always Win’
“Few motor vehicle defect allegations have been more exhaustively investigated and more definitively refuted than claims of sudden unintended acceleration when it involves a shift from park or neutral into a gear,” Chrysler said in a statement.
“Thorough testing to investigate reports of unintended acceleration demonstrates one overriding fact: When the brakes are applied, the vehicle stops; the brakes always win,” the company said in the statement. “Even if the accelerator is nailed to the floor, a driver can stop the vehicle by applying the brakes.”

someone at chrysler thinks douchemonkey is right :/

the brakes bones designs must be inferior to chryslers!
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