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Old March 15th, 2010, 10:43 AM   #41
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there's a story about this on yahoo's front page today and it said in the video that the brakes on the car were significantly worn down.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 10:51 AM   #42
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so you took your moms car out today, beat on it and cooked the brakes, nice
I was thinking this as well.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 10:56 AM   #43
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i am a lifelong diabetic and fail to see how that is going to cause uncontrolled accelleration. white outs from hypoglycemia, sure. passing out from hyperglycemia, sure. foot pressing down on the gas, nope.
I think the article is implying that diabetics lie.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #44
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so you took your moms car out today, beat on it and cooked the brakes, nice
It stopped not much further then normal, that little 4 cyl isn't putting out that much power and it was only one stop. I bet most people are harder then that on their way to work.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 11:38 AM   #45
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there's a story about this on yahoo's front page today and it said in the video that the brakes on the car were significantly worn down.
So they looked at the pads before the incident, and then after?

He could have already had only 25% of the pads left before and after.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #46
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I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 01:30 PM   #47
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I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 03:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
Because the torque that brakes create is much, much more than what engines produce.

I wish I had numbers on what torque a single disc brake can achieve, but unfortunately I'm having trouble finding numbers like that.

Regardless, take any vehicle and floor the gas pedal. Even up to 100 MPH. Then while keeping the throttle wide open, put the brakes to the floor. The brakes will win and the vehicle will slow down very quickly. There won't be enough heat in that time period for the brakes not to work. Passenger brake pads operate fine in the range of 300 F to 600 F typically. Racing brake pads are much higher than that. You'd have to do a lot of hot laps to start seeing those temperatures, or just lightly dragging the brakes over a good distance.
you're wrong on this one. A lot of vehicles will not stop in your scenario, unless they have a 2 foot driving strategy to reduce engine torque while the brake system sees pressure.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 03:55 PM   #49
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you're wrong on this one. A lot of vehicles will not stop in your scenario, unless they have a 2 foot driving strategy to reduce engine torque while the brake system sees pressure.
You mean to tell me that most car engines produce more torque than what the brakes are capable of overcoming? Doesn't that seem a little odd or unsafe? Why is it almost all cars will go from 60 to 0 MPH quicker than they will from 0 to 60 MPH?

I really wish I could find the brake torque that one single disc and caliper can provide. I'm trying to find some formulas to plug in some info to calculate that. That would easily settle the argument.

Even on a motorcycle, full throttle with both brakes applied you will come to a stop. It won't be as quick as with the throttle closed, but you will still come to a stop.

Every other vehicle I've driven, even an old '65 Dodge Polara with manual brakes, full throttle lowest gear even up at a decent speed the brakes (all four drums in this scenario) still bring the vehicle to a complete stop.

My car does the same thing. My '95 Wrangler did the same thing.

I highly doubt a 1965 Dodge, motorcycle, and a YJ have that system in place you speak of.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 04:01 PM   #50
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Maybe this holds the answer?

No idea if the numbers are right or not, but they look pretty legit.

I know if we had all the info on a braking system, namely just force of the caliper, it wouldn't be hard to determine the torque capacity of one single disc brake.

http://sth2.com/Z-car/Brakemath.xls

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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #51
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I would venture to guess Bones knows a little more about this.
Just saying......
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #52
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I would venture to guess Bones knows a little more about this.
Just saying......
Go try it. Maybe my 100 MPH was a little too extreme because of how dependent the braking system capacity is.

But go in a parking lot doing 30 MPH, floor it and then put the brakes to the floor. The older the vehicle the better so we can rule out electronic intervention. As long as your brakes are in good working order, I bet you'll come to a complete stop.

I know Bones is very knowledgeable with this stuff. I know that's what he does for a living. I just find it extremely hard to believe passenger car engines produce enough torque to overcome disc brakes.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #53
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intuition > subject matter expertise
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:49 PM   #54
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intuition > subject matter expertise
I'm not saying he is wrong or right. He was commenting on my 100 MPH scenario which is definitely flawed.

If engines can overcome brakes, then brake torquing would be an impossible feat to achieve with a vehicle.

My observations simply aren't intuition. Like I said, if I had a typical brake force that a caliper applies to a disc, I could easily calculate what torque a disc brake can hold.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:50 PM   #55
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Its what he does for a living.
So theres that.

Are you going to argue law enforcement with Hombre?
Or electrical with CC?
Or fabrication with monkey?
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:53 PM   #56
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Its what he does for a living.
So theres that.

Are you going to argue law enforcement with Hombre?
Or electrical with CC?
Or fabrication with monkey?
What's your point?

I have certifications and what I do for a living to back up my knowledge.

Not trying to compare Bones to Obama, but just because Obama is president doesn't mean he's a political expert now does it?

Your logic is flawed. Anyone, regardless of what they do for a living even if it is their area of expertise can still be wrong. No one is immune to that. I can be wrong too just like every other human being on this planet.

Last edited by GreaseMonkey; March 15th, 2010 at 05:57 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #57
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I may pull my scan tool out tonight and try this with my car. I can monitor the the throttle and see if the ECU starts closing it with the brake applied.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
You mean to tell me that most car engines produce more torque than what the brakes are capable of overcoming? Doesn't that seem a little odd or unsafe? Why is it almost all cars will go from 60 to 0 MPH quicker than they will from 0 to 60 MPH?

I really wish I could find the brake torque that one single disc and caliper can provide. I'm trying to find some formulas to plug in some info to calculate that. That would easily settle the argument.

Even on a motorcycle, full throttle with both brakes applied you will come to a stop. It won't be as quick as with the throttle closed, but you will still come to a stop.

Every other vehicle I've driven, even an old '65 Dodge Polara with manual brakes, full throttle lowest gear even up at a decent speed the brakes (all four drums in this scenario) still bring the vehicle to a complete stop.

My car does the same thing. My '95 Wrangler did the same thing.

I highly doubt a 1965 Dodge, motorcycle, and a YJ have that system in place you speak of.
did you have the foresight to test all of this before toyota's problem because you are really smart?
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:07 PM   #59
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Brakes do not over power all car engines. I drag race and with the brakes fully applied to keep the car in place while stalling it up, there is a point where the car will just push forward and through the brakes.

Also 3 seconds is a lifetime to turn a car off in a dangerous situation.
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Old March 15th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #60
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Brakes do not over power all car engines. I drag race and with the brakes fully applied to keep the car in place while stalling it up, there is a point where the car will just push forward and through the brakes.

Also 3 seconds is a lifetime to turn a car off in a dangerous situation.
I am guessing that engine is not stock?
But neutral is just a flick away...
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