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Old January 12th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #81
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I'll leave the public debating to you guys...you seem to be doing a good job. I just found the conversation interesting here.

I had the opportunity to hear a guy by the name of Josh McDowell speak this weekend. Good speaker. Born and raised in Union City, MI. His story is interesting. During his college years he set out with the intentions of disproving Christianity/Bible and ended up converting himself through his own research. He wrote a book called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict". I haven't read it and probably won't (my mind is already made up and I am not much of a reader). I talked to a couple of guys that said they had read it and found it to be very good. Might be a good one for you guys that like to do the science vs religion comparison. It is my understanding that he wrote it from the science/realistic angle.

Don't know if it would help with the Noah's Ark debate but I thought I would toss it out there.
Check out Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Fountain. He was an evangelical preacher for years and finally realized it was all crap. He's written a couple of great books, Losing Faith in Faith and Godless.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #82
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I knew if I read enough I would find wisdom here and not just book knowledge.

Well Shucks.....:D It's not by my doing that I am where I am. Just keep that in mind.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:03 PM   #83
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Well Shucks.....:D It's not by my doing that I am where I am. Just keep that in mind.
We are not given more than we can handle and that includes the stress and trouble in our lives or the amount we allow to come into or how we handle it. The amount of wisdom we use makes a difference in how people view us.
We have not because we ask not.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #84
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Check out Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Fountain. He was an evangelical preacher for years and finally realized it was all crap. He's written a couple of great books, Losing Faith in Faith and Godless.
I would think that if MattE was interested enough to mention a good speaker and book writer that enriched him in what he had to say, tell me how do you think he could get anything remotely interesting from a guy that is mad at God and is trying to decieve and turn people away from what is fulfilling and true and just. And a man that once believed as you do now. So we know there is also hope for you.
Besides I don't believe he realized it was crap. I believe he was decieved into believeing the same lie you believe. Satan has a way of playing with your head.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:29 PM   #85
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Check out Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Fountain. He was an evangelical preacher for years and finally realized it was all crap. He's written a couple of great books, Losing Faith in Faith and Godless.
So what do you think about those Polar Bears from Noahs ark eating those kids that made fun of the bald guy????
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Old January 12th, 2010, 09:44 PM   #86
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Preface: "you" is anyone who feels like answering, no one specifically.

Honestly, serious question. What makes people believe in something that cannot be validated? I mean, honestly, if you told me that an invisible troll knocked my book off of the table I would not take your word for it. I would set flour on the ground and wait for him to do it again, in attempt to catch the foot prints, thus supporting your claim. But, after I propose my idea you say, "oh wait, he floats". Am I just supposed to believe you then? Please dont use the "faith" card. I need a bit more than "just because".

You will most likely answer with " I see proof every day" or " Just look around, Isn't it obvious?"

No, its not obvious. "Miracles" ( I hate this word by the way, it is HIGHLY over used) are nothing more than a series of events that happened to work out. Take last years "feel good story" Capt. Sullenburger landing that plane on the Hudson. I have heard MANY call it a miracle. No, no it wasnt. It was simply a guy who did his job correctly. Whooo Fawkin Whoo. Don't get me wrong he did an amazing job. And that is my point HE did an amazing job. There were no "interventions" by any deity. Simply a guy who had the ability, thanks to extensive training, to correctly carryout a series of actions that lead to an outcome.

Then people say, "Its a miracle all of the boats got there so fast to help" Are you joking? Oh wait, thats right there were only boats in that river that one day, not on the past 90,000, or the next 90,000.

So there was a legitimate question at the start of that mini rant.

What say you?
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Old January 13th, 2010, 06:28 AM   #87
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I'll leave the public debating to you guys...you seem to be doing a good job. I just found the conversation interesting here.

I had the opportunity to hear a guy by the name of Josh McDowell speak this weekend. Good speaker. Born and raised in Union City, MI. His story is interesting. During his college years he set out with the intentions of disproving Christianity/Bible and ended up converting himself through his own research. He wrote a book called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict". I haven't read it and probably won't (my mind is already made up and I am not much of a reader). I talked to a couple of guys that said they had read it and found it to be very good. Might be a good one for you guys that like to do the science vs religion comparison. It is my understanding that he wrote it from the science/realistic angle.

Don't know if it would help with the Noah's Ark debate but I thought I would toss it out there.
That name sounds really familiar. Maybe he is the speaker that Kerwin wanted me to go see last year, and for some reason or another I didn't end up going with him
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Old January 13th, 2010, 06:57 AM   #88
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I don't exaggerate, I was simply explaining the train of thought behind it. And as I've stated before, I"m not certain which is true. To be honest, it doesn't really matter as long as the Point is carried through, More so for the Sake of the Gospel. I think you'll find that most churches argue about stupid stuff like Baptism or tongues but they rarely, if ever, argue the base theological Background of the Christian Faith. What you're seeing is exactly why heaven is going to be so cool. No body will fight, we'll all get to do what we were Purposed to do, and biggest of all, We'll understand why God does what he does. I would think that Everyone would be happy with that Senerio.


But what I don't understand is the fact that you're basing your decisions/thoughts on what the church "released" to you, and not what was actually written down in the past. Why did the church remove the Apocalpyse of peter, the protovangelion (spelling?) of james, and the book of enoch, and many more. You told me that you read both sides of the story to find a more clear image of the whole picture, which anybody who actually wants to learn about a subject will do, so why is the church removing this option for you, and "deleting" complete gospels from the bible?

Whenever I see a company, a person, or a government censoring information, I immediately put the trust level to zero, on a zero to ten scale.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 07:04 AM   #89
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Then people say, "Its a miracle all of the boats got there so fast to help" Are you joking? Oh wait, thats right there were only boats in that river that one day, not on the past 90,000, or the next 90,000.
Edward Current explains this in a fun way:

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Old January 13th, 2010, 07:18 AM   #90
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I'm curious as to what LC4X means when he talks about reading or watching something about science and sees God's work in it everywhere. I don't get what that means. Is this like the "look at the trees and nature, how could God not have done it?" thing?
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Old January 13th, 2010, 07:54 AM   #91
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Check out Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom from Religion Fountain. He was an evangelical preacher for years and finally realized it was all crap. He's written a couple of great books, Losing Faith in Faith and Godless.
Thanks for the suggestion. There are lots of good authors out there on both sides. Josh McDowell is just one that I had recently heard and it seemed to me that his book topic would fit into this thread topic...as would your suggestion of Dan Barker (I never heard of him but I did check out his wiki page...man I love that site, you can find anything there!). If I can't convince myself to take the time to read a book about my faith I would be surprised if I were to read one that speaks out against it.

I guess for me it really comes down to knowing what I believe and being happy with that. As you guys know, this debate didn't just start with CC's post about Noah's Ark. It has been going on for thousands of years now and it will continue since Christianity is a faith-based religion. There will always be people questioning the validity of it and I see that as a good thing. I will make people think and be able to decide for themselves.

I look at it this way...I enjoy my life the way it is. I enjoy going to church and being part of a church family. I enjoy reading the Bible and I feel like it helps me be a better husband, father and person in both my private and professional lives. Do you need to be a Christian, read the Bible and go to church to be a good person? Of course not. I don't view being a Christian as being detrimental to my life or holding me back so to speak, I think just the opposite. It's possible I might think differently if I had it forced upon me at some point but I didn't and I am thankful for that.

Good debate guys. It is cool to see a "religious" thread make it so far without quickly resorting to name calling and bad mouthing. I am going to excuse myself now and go read about what you guys have been doing with your toys in the tech section.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 07:57 AM   #92
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I look at it this way...I enjoy my life the way it is. I enjoy going to church and being part of a church family. I enjoy reading the Bible and I feel like it helps me be a better husband, father and person in both my private and professional lives.

That is all that matters in the end, whatever it takes to be the best person. For some it's science and understanding, for others it comes down to religion and faith, and others it's a mix of the two
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Old January 13th, 2010, 09:17 AM   #93
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I don't think alot of Churches act they way you think they do. Agenda's? Really? Sure, there are some that are abusing thier power, Just like the Roman Catholic church during the Crusades, but that doesn't mean they all are. Most follow the bible and use it to help people.


My point was that each religion cherry picks passages from the same book. I have not run into a single religion that follows the bible word for word, taking every single passage to heart.

Cherry picking is done when you want to portray a certain massage. It happens in religion, it happens in politicis, it happens in education.

This is what I meant by supporting an agenda. It is not about abusing power, it is about preaching an ideal.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #94
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there is not enough water in the oceans to cover the deepest mountains.
for the world to flood, it does not have to cover the top of all mountains, it has to cover all known and useful land, that which is used by the animals that needed to board the boat. There are tons of large land mass shifts due to incredibly fast moving volumes of water. Most of these are not able to be understood without large volumes of fast moving water. HELLO!?!?

Just here in the United States alone are tons of them, the most notable being the grand canyon.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:50 PM   #95
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Edward Current explains this in a fun way:

YouTube- What If God Disappeared?
Sheesh. You just messed up my whole day. Since I don't believe in God, that means he might as well not be here, therefore I have to go home and rape a puppy and eat my family...

And to think, I was just going to have dinner and watch a movie.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:53 PM   #96
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Yet people like you attempt to make Christians look like some kind of Inferior part of the race because we have what it takes to believe in something that we can't see. You mock peoples faith but fail to realize that those people are exactly the same as you except they can believe in something they can't see. Any Christian Out there can look at a Flower and know it's there. Yet athiests, agnostics, whatever can't even contemplate the idea of a "unseen" deity.
Oh come on L4, you KNOW that christians and many other religious people frequently use terms like enlightened and saved, as if we are somewhow missing the boat... Hey, this is an ark thread, so I had to tie it in somehow.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:53 PM   #97
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for the world to flood, it does not have to cover the top of all mountains, it has to cover all known and useful land, that which is used by the animals that needed to board the boat. There are tons of large land mass shifts due to incredibly fast moving volumes of water. Most of these are not able to be understood without large volumes of fast moving water. HELLO!?!?

Just here in the United States alone are tons of them, the most notable being the grand canyon.
Dave, you're the smartest christian person I know, and you're telling me you believe in the world flood?
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #98
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Dave, you're the smartest christian person I know, and you're telling me you believe in the world flood?
And in the Grand Canyon yet. I thought the GC was formed over a long, slow process of gradual erosion......?
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Old January 13th, 2010, 01:08 PM   #99
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But what I don't understand is the fact that you're basing your decisions/thoughts on what the church "released" to you, and not what was actually written down in the past. Why did the church remove the Apocalpyse of peter, the protovangelion (spelling?) of james, and the book of enoch, and many more. You told me that you read both sides of the story to find a more clear image of the whole picture, which anybody who actually wants to learn about a subject will do, so why is the church removing this option for you, and "deleting" complete gospels from the bible?

Whenever I see a company, a person, or a government censoring information, I immediately put the trust level to zero, on a zero to ten scale.
You make a good point, I should probably read those in order to get what they were saying. But, For the most part, any thing here that is argued here is about the Christian bible. As of now, that's the 64 books of the bible. Genesis through Revalation. Those other books can bring in other views but weren't deamed nessicary and actually in excess of the goal of the bible. In other words, the people that took those out didn't think they were realevent. If you don't like it, that's just how it is.

So You don't trust anyone then? Because Everyone censors information in one form or another.

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I'm curious as to what LC4X means when he talks about reading or watching something about science and sees God's work in it everywhere. I don't get what that means. Is this like the "look at the trees and nature, how could God not have done it?" thing?
Cells are a Good Example, Most people would look at the Scientfic view and see a complex product of Some Evoultionary State. I see a Designed system.....So yeah, "How could God not have done that". I, personally, don't think there is anything wrong with that because the Evoultionary side does the exact same thing with most of the data it has. In fact, Most data found is to prove Evoultion in one form or another and what you'll find is that most Christians Like me, will be able to see it as something different. Just another Finger print of God.

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My point was that each religion cherry picks passages from the same book. I have not run into a single religion that follows the bible word for word, taking every single passage to heart.

Cherry picking is done when you want to portray a certain massage. It happens in religion, it happens in politicis, it happens in education.

This is what I meant by supporting an agenda. It is not about abusing power, it is about preaching an ideal.
Well, If you mean you havn't run into a single religion that uses the Bible Literally, with out any prior knowldege to the context of the book, then you are right. With proper understanding of the Context of the verses read, I can except any thing in the bible as truth. It's not that difficult it's just a little work to understand where the author was coming from. Of course, understanding the book/author also can reveal wether it's supposed to be history, or just a Story, or just a Revelation.

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And in the Grand Canyon yet. I thought the GC was formed over a long, slow process of gradual erosion......?
Yeah, because that works so well in an Evoultionary thought process. That's why. If you add in a Cadaclismic (Sp?) event in there then it changes things. The Flood is not a normal Event.

Well, Off to Work.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #100
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Yeah, because that works so well in an Evoultionary thought process. That's why. If you add in a Cadaclismic (Sp?) event in there then it changes things. The Flood is not a normal Event.

Well, Off to Work.
HUH?!?!? So are you saying that the slow, gradual erosion didn't actually occur, was made up by people that endorse evolution, and that it was actually a flood?
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