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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:10 AM   #1
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Default Assault Rifle chat - What one to get? Here are my three choices.

It doesn't really matter to me on pistol grip or not. I like them both, but I would prefer reliability. I've shot all three, and I like them all. I'd rather spend the least about of money necessary. Anyway, here are my final three options.. If I messed up and I'm missing something, fill me in.


1st choice:
AK-74 ($700ish)


2nd choice:
Hungarian AMD 65 ($540)



3rd choice (you can't buy them assembled (legally))
Izhmash AK-101 (almost) $1700
aK-47, site folding stock, and ak-74 muzzle brake, and you basically have the ak-101.

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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:12 AM   #2
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choice 5 ar variant at least after dropping 700+ dollars you have an accurate weapon with lots of options for customization
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:13 AM   #3
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ak47.net... in all reality, the guys over there would probably know more about those guns than anyone here and could tell you which of the three would be your best option.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:15 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrt6dakota View Post
ak47.net... in all reality, the guys over there would probably know more about those guns than anyone here and could tell you which of the three would be your best option.
sorry, already tried that, and now I know what a newbie feels like here. After two posts I wanted to make a youtube video telling them to f-themselves, but they all have ak's
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
sorry, already tried that, and now I know what a newbie feels like here. After two posts I wanted to make a youtube video telling them to f-themselves, but they all have ak's
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
sorry, already tried that, and now I know what a newbie feels like here. After two posts I wanted to make a youtube video telling them to f-themselves, but they all have ak's
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:19 AM   #7
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You might want to try glocktalk.com in the "general firearms" forum. There is a ton of traffic and very helpful people there. Plus, its a glock forum but many have sigs, h&k etc, as well as different types of guns. I am sure they could help you.

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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:22 AM   #8
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You might want to try glocktalk.com in the "general firearms" forum. There is a ton of traffic and very helpful people there. Plus, its a glock forum but may have sigs, h&k etc, as well as different types of guns. I am sure they could help you.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
sorry, already tried that, and now I know what a newbie feels like here. After two posts I wanted to make a youtube video telling them to f-themselves, but they all have ak's
LOL, yeah... they tend to be snobbish. The funny part is when you remind them that ARs are better. They LOVE that comment.

I seemed to have pretty good luck there, but then again, it did take a while.

Did you try MIgunowners yet?

To answer your question though, going with the three, I'd say that the 74 would be cool, due to the 5.56 ammo instead of 7.62. Last I checked, prices were just a little bit cheaper on 5.56.

Things to watch for, especially with the Izhmash, is to make sure if you get one with a doublestack magwell, and that it's either the original milling (if it's a milled receiver) or that it's been properly cut instead of dremel'd open. You can make a double stack out of a single stack, and many people do, but they do it with a dremel tool. It's ugly, and it usually causes the magazines to rock in the magwell.

With the Izhmash, I'm assuming it's a Saiga conversion. You can do the conversion much cheaper, using the parts you want. You just have to buy the base rifle, some US made parts, then follow the instructions on ak.net. You can even do that with a "parts kit" if you can still find one.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:25 AM   #10
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That was another reason the 74 was my first choice, was the cheaper ammo.

Yes, the Izhmash is a saiga conversion at a local gun shop.

I also love the looks of the 74.... I was kind of hoping somebody would tell me that the 74 has x wrong with it..
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Old October 29th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #11
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I have shot AK AR and G3 in the same day
H&K G3 .308 makes all the others feel like 22's
The diffence of shooting down range and throwing lead down range.

P.S. Don't forget your ear plugs for the G3
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Old October 29th, 2009, 10:57 AM   #12
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New Ruger AR model. Hands down.

Ruger's making up for being late to the game by rolling in all manner of "better" hop-up parts off the shelf.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I also love the looks of the 74.... I was kind of hoping somebody would tell me that the 74 has x wrong with it..
Just the typical AK stuff. Look down the sights and make sure the front isn't "canted". It's a somewhat easy fix with a drill press, but still worth noting. Watch for a worn out feed ramp (remove the mag, look through it, it's a 1/4 circle about 1/2" wide. Check and make sure that it's secured tightly.

Any AK will rattle when shaken. If it doesn't, someone probably packed it full of cosmoline to try and sell it.

You'll prefer a milled receiver to a stamped, but either is fine. If you end up with a stamped receiver, make sure the slide rails are secure and tight.

With some of the old 74s, you might get lucky (depending on country of origin) and get a receiver with the "3rd" position for the safety lever. Naturally, it won't do anything, but it's cool to have anyways.

AKs don't naturally have a "bolt hold open", so be aware when you go to a gun range and they have you lock the action open during cease fires. Island Lake in particular puts up a stink about AKs because of this. Depending on who the range captain is, they'll either tell you that you can't fire it, or they'll make you stick an empty casing in the action during cease fire.
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Old October 29th, 2009, 11:31 AM   #14
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AK-74 all the way

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Old October 29th, 2009, 01:05 PM   #15
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I would go with something like this:

Anvil Arms AR15 Custom Tactical 5.56 / .223 // $750 FIRM CASH / OR $850 TRADE - MGO Community Forum

or roll your own:

http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt103.htm
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Old October 30th, 2009, 06:53 PM   #16
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if you like the saiga just buy it and convert it yourself. a gun shop does not have to do the work for you and you can do it cheaper and up to your standard.

here is a video to show you how easy it is. they got all of the parts from www.dinzagarms.com. he is a local guy to michigan and a great guy to deal with



and here is some info for you taken from another website im a part of (saiga-12.com)



Quote:
Parts Count on Saiga Shotguns and Rifles

In this document I will attempt to express my understanding of the current laws and how they apply to the Saiga firearms. If you have questions & concerns or disagree with what I've put together, we can modify. The scope of this is to have a post to link members to if they have parts count questions. I realize there are several posts on this, but most do not specifically apply to both rifles and shotguns. Maybe this can be stickied somewhere handy.

Before doing anything, check with your local and state laws as you may have tighter regulations than what the ATF has laid out for us.

The Saigas have a certain number of parts in their unmodified “Sporting” configuration. They are considered imported because they have more than 10 imported parts in them. As such they are held to 922 ® compliance.

If you want to use high capacity magazines, convert the weapon to pistol grip configuration or use a flash hider, it will then be considered unsporting. You will need to swap out parts so that you have no more than 10 imported parts in it. It will then be considered a US made firearm and 922® does not apply. See bottom of this post for more 922® info and some grey areas.



Parts List

Here’s a quick overview of the parts count determined by the ATF definition letter listed at http://www.soupbowl.....ru/page12.html. For the Saiga rifles, refer to the Galil/AK parts count. The Saiga Shotguns are directly referenced.

A Saiga Rifle in factory configuration has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun threaded for chokes has 14 parts.
A Saiga shotgun not threaded for chokes has 13 parts.

(parts on a factory config saiga are in bold)

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion (rifles only)
(5) Muzzle attachments (shotguns w/ threaded barrels only)
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers

(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstock

(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates




Examples:

You have a Saiga-12 with factory threaded barrel. (14 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list.

-or-

You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered “unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922®. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go.

-or-

You have a Saiga-410 and want to use the factory 10 round magazines. This is believed to be considered high-capacity in a shotgun and be in violation of 922®. You will need to remove imported parts and replace them with U.S. made parts so you have no more than 10 imported ones total.



Grey Areas

Sporting Purposes…
While this was defined in the now-defunct AWB of 1994, the term "Sporting Purposes" is in actuality determined by the opinion of the Secretary of the Treasury. There is no clear ruling on what exactly that means so adding a bayonet lug or flash hider to the firearm may be considered "unsporting" and in violation of 922®.

High Capacity Magazines…
It has been argued what exactly high capacity magazine means. Generally it has been understood that the magazine limit for rifles is 10 rounds and shotguns is 5. Anymore than that and it’s considered “unsuitable for sporting purposes”. Problem is there are no clear definitions stating that exactly.

Flash Hider/Muzzle Brakes/Compensators…
Any type of FH, Brake, Comp or choke are considered muzzle devices. They are included in the parts count. However there has been some disagreement in the past as to whether adding a muzzle brake constitutes making the imported weapon “unsporting”.

Shotgun Chokes…
It’s also arguable whether chokes are considered a part or not and the threading itself is not considered a part, but to be on the safe side I’d consider a choke or thread protector a muzzle device.

Shotgun Pistons…
It’s been the general understanding that the grooved plug in the gas block on the shotguns is considered the piston and the rod on the bolt carrier is either and operating rod or carrier extension. The gas piston on the rifles and other AK’s is the part that is threaded into the bolt carrier.

Parts count difference between the rifles and shotguns…
The main difference between the rifle and shotguns parts counts is the shotguns do not have #(4) Mounting blocks, trunnion. I don’t really understand that part because to be they look to have the same general construction, but that is how the definitions are listed by the ATF themselves.



922 ® in short…

Section 922®, of Title 18, U.S.C. prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles from imported parts. The implementing regulations in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) section 178.39(a), provide that no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d) (3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

For further information about 922®, go to the ATF Website or http://uscode.house.gov/ and search for 18 U.S.C. § 922® and 27 CFR § 478.39 of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.



In Summary

So you made it through all the gibberish above, I hope I have enlightened you a little about the legalities of modifying a Saiga. In short, convert the thing to a U.S. made firearm and do whatever you want to it. Just mind your parts count!

922® isn't such a bad thing, think of all the U.S. business you are helping to support. Also you are turning that ugly little antelope into a much more graceful looking thing of beauty! Remember, a factory configuration Saiga is an example of what the gun control fanatics would like to have all assault weapons look like. Do your job to support the American economy and convert them to U.S. made firearms!
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:15 PM   #17
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i prefer the 1st option because of the 5.56 round.

i have 2 ak-47 and 2 sks rifles. 1 mini-14 and an ar-15. i feel the follow up shot in a tactical situation is alot faster with the lighter recoil of the 5.56 round.

both rounds are readily available but 5.56 is much easier to reload since most 7.62 shells use a berdian primer and the 5.56 uses a boxer primer.

both rounds have their + & - to them and either will get the job done and both are fun to shoot. but imo with shooting lots of both rounds i feel the lighter recoil of the 5.56 will keep you on target with less time between shots.

i personally also dont like folding stocks becuase if i want to shoot a pistol i have those too and i want my rifle to be accurate and good luck being accurate with the stock folded.

as mentioned a milled reciever is real nice but stamped will also work just fine. a crome lined barrell is way more important and if the gun dosent have one i wont buy it period.

keep us up to date and let us know what you buy and your thoughts on it
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:21 PM   #18
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Get an FN. .308

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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:25 PM   #19
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i prefer the 1st option because of the 5.56 round.
thats the plus about the saiga. you can get it in 5.56, 7.62, .308, .410, 20g, 12g.
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Old October 30th, 2009, 07:50 PM   #20
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Im bringing my AK to the GR gun show in the morning $750 comes with 3 diff. stocks 6 30 round mags and 250 rounds of 7.62 and other misc. items
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