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Old October 22nd, 2009, 11:53 AM   #1
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Default Nationalized Healthcare: true story

This is what rationing funds and government scheduling of medical procedures for healthcare creates. From England:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...are-limit.html

'Doctors told me it was against the rules to save my premature baby'
By Vanessa Allen and Andrew Levy
Last updated at 8:53 AM on 10th September 2009


Doctors left a premature baby to die because he was born two days too early, his devastated mother claimed yesterday. Sarah Capewell begged them to save her tiny son, who was born just 21 weeks and five days into her pregnancy - almost four months early.
They ignored her pleas and allegedly told her they were following national guidelines that babies born before 22 weeks should not be given medical treatment.
Miss Capewell, 23, said doctors refused to even see her son Jayden, who lived for almost two hours without any medical support.
She said he was breathing unaided, had a strong heartbeat and was even moving his arms and legs, but medics refused to admit him to a special care baby unit.


Miss Capewell is now fighting for a review of the medical guidelines.
Heartbreak: Sarah Capewell with her daughter Jodi, five
Sarah Capewell is fighting for new guidelines on when infants should be given intensive care after her premature son Jayden (right) was refused treatment

Medics allegedly told her that they would have tried to save the baby if he had been born two days later, at 22 weeks.
In fact, the medical guidelines for Health Service hospitals state that babies should not be given intensive care if they are born at less than 23 weeks.
The guidance, drawn up by the Nuffield Council, is not compulsory but advises doctors that medical intervention for very premature children is not in the best interests of the baby, and is not 'standard practice'.
James Paget Hospital in Norfolk refused to comment on the case but said it was not responsible for setting the guidelines relating to premature births.
A trust spokesman said: 'Like other acute hospitals, we follow national guidance from the British Association of Perinatal Medicine regarding premature births.'
Miss Capewell, who has had five miscarriages, said the guidelines had robbed her son of a chance of life.
Short life: Miss Capewell's son Jayden died two hours after he was born at James Paget Hospital in Gorleston, Norfolk, in October 2008
She said: 'When he was born, he put out his arms and legs and pushed himself over.

A midwife said he was breathing and had a strong heartbeat, and described him as a "little fighter".

I kept asking for the doctors but the midwife said, "They won't come and help, sweetie. Make the best of the time you have with him".'
She cuddled her child and took precious photos of him, but he died in her arms less than two hours after his birth.
Miss Capewell, who has a five-year-old daughter Jodie, went into labour in October last year at 21 weeks and four days after suffering problems during her pregnancy.
She said she was told that because she had not reached 22 weeks, she was not allowed injections to try to stop the labour, or a steroid injection to help to strengthen her baby's lungs.

Instead, doctors told her to treat the labour as a miscarriage, not a birth, and to expect her baby to be born with serious deformities or even to be still-born.

She told how she begged one paediatrician, 'You have got to help', only for the man to respond: 'No we don't.'

As her contractions continued, a chaplain arrived at her bedside to discuss bereavement and planning a funeral, she claims.
She said: 'I was sitting there, reading this leaflet about planning a funeral and thinking, this is my baby, he isn't even born yet, let alone dead.'
After his death she even had to argue with hospital officials for her right to receive birth and death certificates, which meant she could give her son a proper funeral.
Justice for Jayden: His mother is campaigning to change the law
She was shocked to discover that another child, born in the U.S. at 21 weeks and six days into her mother's pregnancy, had survived.
Amillia Taylor was born in Florida in 2006 and celebrated her second birthday last October. She is the youngest premature baby to survive.
Miss Capewell said: 'I could not believe that one little girl, Amillia Taylor, is perfectly healthy after being born in Florida in 2006 at 21 weeks and six days.
'Thousands of women have experienced this. The doctors say the babies won't survive but how do they know if they are not giving them a chance?'
Miss Capewell has won the support of Labour MP Tony Wright, who has backed her call for a review of the medical guidelines. He said: 'When a woman wants to give the best chance to her baby, they should surely be afforded that opportunity.'

What the medical guidelines say...Guidance limiting care of the most premature babies provoked outrage when it was published three years ago.
Experts on medical ethics advised doctors not to resuscitate babies born before 23 weeks in the womb, stating that it was not in the child's 'best interests'.


The guidelines said: 'If gestational age is certain and less than 23+0 (i.e at 22 weeks) it would be considered in the best interests of the baby, and standard practice, for resuscitation not to be carried out.'
Medical intervention would be given for a child born between 22 and 23 weeks only if the parents requested it and only after discussion about likely outcomes.
The rules were endorsed by the British Association of Perinatal Medicine and are followed by NHS hospitals.
The association said they were not meant to be a 'set of instructions', but doctors regard them as the best available advice on the treatment of premature babies.
More than 80,000 babies are born prematurely in Britain every year, and of those some 40,000 need to be treated in intensive care.

The NHS spends an estimated £1 billion a year on their care.
But while survival rates for those born after 24 weeks in the womb have risen significantly, the rates for those born earlier have barely changed, despite advances in medicine and technology.
Medical experts say babies born before 23 weeks are simply too under-developed to survive, and that to use aggressive treatment methods would only prolong their suffering, or inflict pain.
The guidelines were drawn up by the Nuffield Council on Bioethics after a two-year inquiry which took evidence from doctors, nurses and religious leaders.
But weeks before they were published in 2006, a child was born in the U.S. which proved a baby could survive at earlier than 22 weeks if it was given medical treatment.
Amillia Taylor was born in Florida on October 24, 2006, after just 21 weeks and six days in the womb. She celebrated her second birthday last year.
Doctors believed she was a week older and so gave her intensive care, but later admitted she would not have received treatment if they had known her true age.
Her birth also coincided with the debate in Britain over whether the abortion limit should be reduced.

Some argued that if a baby could survive at 22 weeks then the time limit on abortions should be reduced.
The argument, which was lost in Parliament, followed a cut to the time limit in 1990 when politicians reduced it from 28 weeks to 24 weeks, in line with scientific evidence that foetuses could survive outside the womb at a younger age.
However, experts say cases like Amillia Taylor's are rare, and can raise false expectations about survival rates.
Studies show that only 1 per cent of babies born before 23 weeks survive, and many suffer serious disabilities.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 12:44 PM   #2
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well everyone on this earth that has socialist healthcare hates it, but the dumb fuckers of this country seem to think it's a great idea.

but people are living in fantasy land. they won't realize obama and his bullshit was a bad idea until it actually affects them in the first person.

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Old October 22nd, 2009, 03:23 PM   #3
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It really hurts me to read something like this story about babies being denied care because of politics and money. I would like to see if this same situation was to involve political leaders and if one of thier wives needed care for a child in the same situation.
Government health care is great if you are not sick.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 03:44 PM   #4
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A horrible story indeed.

But this is not what is envisioned for the helath care reform bill in Congress. Sorry, it is just not.

And not everyone with National health care progrmas hate them. Many countries in Europe have systems that are not like Britain and these systems work. I know all of my relatives in the Netherlands are very happy with their Health care. So damn socialist that you have choices among PRIVATE providers. A single payer system that works. oh well.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 03:58 PM   #5
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Obama's vision of single payer health care is not to benefit the american people it is to create income for the government and population control for the poor.
Another question is how do you know that what the envision as health care will not be what other countries have embraced as health care run and finaced by the government.
If you believe that the governmet will not cut care to the sick when money comes down to it you are being nieve if not ignorant.
Obama has done nothing but lie through his teeth every time he opens his mouth.
How can you believe or trust a man by the company he keeps (his carzs) criminal, pedofiles and communists.
If this is what your home land is like then you can keep it, it is not what america is about. Our country will continue to slide down the slippry slope as long as people like you and with your left wing out look on how you believe things should be.

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Old October 22nd, 2009, 05:30 PM   #6
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A horrible story indeed.

But this is not what is envisioned for the helath care reform bill in Congress. Sorry, it is just not.

And not everyone with National health care progrmas hate them. Many countries in Europe have systems that are not like Britain and these systems work. I know all of my relatives in the Netherlands are very happy with their Health care. So damn socialist that you have choices among PRIVATE providers. A single payer system that works. oh well.
No Pete they don't work.
Can you make an appointment to get a checkup, or a mammogram for women? Nope.
In fact, good luck getting any preventive medical care in the Netherlands.

The Netherlands has a health care system that is about one step above a third world country. Unless of course you make a good living and can afford additional coverage.

I'm sure the libs "envision" a medical utopia. But it just wont work.
Mitt Romney tried to implement a Dutch type health care program in Mass. and it has failed.

You just can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact that this "private" option that we will all have is a lie and they know it.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 06:59 PM   #7
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No Pete they don't work.
Can you make an appointment to get a checkup, or a mammogram for women? Nope.
In fact, good luck getting any preventive medical care in the Netherlands.

The Netherlands has a health care system that is about one step above a third world country. Unless of course you make a good living and can afford additional coverage.

I'm sure the libs "envision" a medical utopia. But it just wont work.
Mitt Romney tried to implement a Dutch type health care program in Mass. and it has failed.

You just can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact that this "private" option that we will all have is a lie and they know it.
I vote that pete go back to his home land and report back to us on his findings about health care. I mean he go into the hospitals and report who gets covered and who does not. Honest reporting on how government run programs do not work. It does not work here why would it work in a foriegn country.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 08:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
A horrible story indeed.

But this is not what is envisioned for the helath care reform bill in Congress. Sorry, it is just not.

And not everyone with National health care progrmas hate them. Many countries in Europe have systems that are not like Britain and these systems work. I know all of my relatives in the Netherlands are very happy with their Health care. So damn socialist that you have choices among PRIVATE providers. A single payer system that works. oh well.
pete,
even if it was not in the initial legislation, the power thirst fueled by a financially burdened government plan would lead to added legislation to force death, deny care and anything else to try and reign in the program that was doomed to fail before it was implemented. when has our aristocracy said "we have enough power, we don't need any more". they eventually will get a "rush" off controlling life or death.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 08:58 PM   #9
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I vote that pete go back to his home land and report back to us on his findings about health care. I mean he go into the hospitals and report who gets covered and who does not. Honest reporting on how government run programs do not work. It does not work here why would it work in a foriegn country.

Nice, bring out the ole go back home card.


I don't have to go there to see for myself, although I would not mind the trip. I have my relatives there who I can ask.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:00 PM   #10
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embrace obamacare



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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:00 PM   #11
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pete,
even if it was not in the initial legislation, the power thirst fueled by a financially burdened government plan would lead to added legislation to force death, deny care and anything else to try and reign in the program that was doomed to fail before it was implemented. when has our aristocracy said "we have enough power, we don't need any more". they eventually will get a "rush" off controlling life or death.

I certainly hope you are wrong. Won't be real surprised if you are not.

But I won't argue todays facts with tomorrows possibilities.

Medicare does work, it is abused and there is waste and fraud, but the dispensing of medical care to those eligible and in need does work.
Medicaid is the same.

Don't confuse theft, fraud and waste with ability to provide good health care to recipients.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:02 PM   #12
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embrace obamacare

Nice scare tactic.

I just got done having an interesting conversation along the lines of this topic with my mother.

She would really be impressed with you posted that picture (yes I am being very sarcastic). She survived WWII living in Rotterdam. The horrors she saw on all sides would just make you sick, maybe.

Sadly, you seem to be too intelligent to fall for these types of tactics. Yet you do.
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:04 PM   #13
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Nice, bring out the ole go back home card.


I don't have to go there to see for myself, although I would not mind the trip. I have my relatives there who I can ask.
Sorry had to bring it up seeing as you did
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:15 PM   #14
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I certainly hope you are wrong. Won't be real surprised if you are not.

But I won't argue todays facts with tomorrows possibilities.

Medicare does work, it is abused and there is waste and fraud, but the dispensing of medical care to those eligible and in need does work.
Medicaid is the same.

Don't confuse theft, fraud and waste with ability to provide good health care to recipients.
The factory door locks work just fine, you don't need an alarm.
It's the bad people that steal cars that are the problem.

How in the hell can you say medicaid works?

I guess bailing out the Titanic with a 5gal. bucket also "works".
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Old October 22nd, 2009, 09:18 PM   #15
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Nice scare tactic.

I just got done having an interesting conversation along the lines of this topic with my mother.

She would really be impressed with you posted that picture (yes I am being very sarcastic). She survived WWII living in Rotterdam. The horrors she saw on all sides would just make you sick, maybe.

Sadly, you seem to be too intelligent to fall for these types of tactics. Yet you do.

who is reigning in our elected to stop them from something like this? that is why I post those images. not to scare, but to remind the complacent of what is possible when power goes unchecked. if a failed system is implemented that is doomed to go broke how will any medical research be advanced? with the experimentation on those who are dependent on the system. they may not even know it. if a child is terminal, who's to say the aristocracy won't wisk them away and experiment for their gain? 90% of the politicians in washington would do it in a heartbeat.

for my uncles who witnessed the horrors first hand I cannot comprehend. I have piles of photos from my granddad in the pacific of mass graves of japs, one with his local assistant holding a trophy severed jap head with half the face blown off, even a nice pic of some poor bastard flamed in his spider hole. brutal stuff. I'm not sure he ever really recovered. In college I did a show display using his images as a reminder for the masses of unchecked power.
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 06:44 AM   #16
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I certainly hope you are wrong. Won't be real surprised if you are not.
So you are willing to go down a path that could lead to that?

We usually dont agree on politics but I understand where you are coming from most of the time. I know your intentions are good. This confuses me. Are you drinking? Do you have your glasses on?
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 07:51 AM   #17
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So you are willing to go down a path that could lead to that?

We usually dont agree on politics but I understand where you are coming from most of the time. I know your intentions are good. This confuses me. Are you drinking? Do you have your glasses on?
maybe drugs?
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 09:19 AM   #18
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No Pete they don't work.
Can you make an appointment to get a checkup, or a mammogram for women? Nope.
In fact, good luck getting any preventive medical care in the Netherlands.

The Netherlands has a health care system that is about one step above a third world country. Unless of course you make a good living and can afford additional coverage.

I'm sure the libs "envision" a medical utopia. But it just wont work.
Mitt Romney tried to implement a Dutch type health care program in Mass. and it has failed.

You just can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact that this "private" option that we will all have is a lie and they know it.

Really? The Netherlands are like that? All of my relatives, including my own brother have been lieing to me all these years? Damn, I am glad you set me straight
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 09:31 AM   #19
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So you are willing to go down a path that could lead to that?

We usually dont agree on politics but I understand where you are coming from most of the time. I know your intentions are good. This confuses me. Are you drinking? Do you have your glasses on?
Guess I am just not surprised by anything anymore. I hope for the best, but expect the worst. If the best happens I am good, if the worst happens I am not let down too much.

I really do think that health care reform is needed and that the plans (which need tweaking) in Congress right now have a chance of doing more good than harm. Based on what is written.




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maybe drugs?

ummmm.......no
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Old October 23rd, 2009, 09:32 AM   #20
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The factory door locks work just fine, you don't need an alarm.
It's the bad people that steal cars that are the problem.

How in the hell can you say medicaid works?

I guess bailing out the Titanic with a 5gal. bucket also "works".

Because people are getting medical care? Unless that is not what the intent is.
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