Anyone here running a full manual valve body? - Page 3 - Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest

Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Talk > General Tech
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

greatlakes4x4.com is the premier Great Lakes 4x4 Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 15th, 2009, 04:56 PM   #41
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 22,344
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Shifting from any forward gear, to neutral, reverse, or park, is dependant more or less completely on your shifter.

So for auto and manual valve body, those are the same.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Now for shifts from 1 - 2, and 2 - 3, and 3 - 2 and 2 - 1, then thats where differences come in.
In vehcile design, the most important part is to set up for rpm range and gearing to make it so you never *have* to shift in most situations. Lower enough to have power, high enough to have rpm range.
Disagree. That's the beauty of an automatic. Call it laziness, comfort or whatever you want, it has advantages to do it for you. If I'm cruising up a hill and suddenly realize that I'm going to bog down or possibly encounter loose sand and need wheel speed, I can stab my gas right then and go. It downshifts nicely and accelerates. I've found that if I try to do that by manually downshifting, the natural instinct is to back off the gas for a split moment, thus loosing momentum. Reaction is very similar to a stick when downshifting on a hill. Momentum lost and in many cases, screeching halt. The automatic simply handles it. Yes, I will admit that there are times it has downshifted when I didn't want it to, but again, I think it's very rare and not an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
see the blurb in yellow. lose weight, gain power, or change the gears.
Or, enjoy the convenience that an automatic gives you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Upshifting, the gates can be designed easy enough to have a positing stop where you need it, say 1/2 or 2/3, so you just put it back and are in the next gear.
I've currently modified mine to go direct from D to R. I'm contemplating switching it to 2 to R. I've never needed to grab 1st gear quickly. (other than a downhill crawl)

There are those that are die hard stick guys and there are those that are die hard drive it with a stick but I can't drive a clutch guys.

Then there are those like me that are just plain lazy.

Last edited by whiterhino; October 15th, 2009 at 07:39 PM.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old October 15th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #42
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,793
iTrader: (58)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
If I'm cruising up a hill and suddenly realize that I'm going to bog down or possibly encounter loose sand and need wheel speed, I can stab my gas right then and go. It downshifts nicely and accelerates. I've found that if I try to do that by manually downshifting, the natural instinct is to back off the gas for a split moment, thus loosing momentum. :
I'm just used to selecting the correct gear for a hill.

anywho, the overall merits have been beat to death. Thanks to those who actually have one and commented. Thanks for those who dont have any experience but wanted to chime in anyway
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2009, 06:01 AM   #43
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 22,344
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Thanks for those who dont have any experience but wanted to chime in anyway
That would be me.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #44
benny87
Young Gun..!
 
benny87's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08-03-06
Location: Waterford
Posts: 2,970
iTrader: (4)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Can I chime in without getting flammed. Lol.. I know I dont have much experience but before I picked my transmission I was in the same spot where you are right now.

I had a NV4500 in my jeep prior to tearing it down and I wanted a FMVB auto. But their were a few things that made me decided to stay away from it.
A) Im right their with Jim on being lazy.Lol. I just want to drive and let the trans do it thing.
B) I want to be able to drive this thing on the road just around town and not have to drive it like a manual and keep slapping the shifter around because to me that would get annoying after awhile, ESPECIALLY down shifting with my Art-carr.

But thats all just my thoughts, your rig might be a full out trail rig.
benny87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #45
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,793
iTrader: (58)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny87 View Post
Can I chime in without getting flammed. Lol.. I know I dont have much experience but before I picked my transmission I was in the same spot where you are right now.

I had a NV4500 in my jeep prior to tearing it down and I wanted a FMVB auto. But their were a few things that made me decided to stay away from it.
A) Im right their with Jim on being lazy.Lol. I just want to drive and let the trans do it thing.
B) I want to be able to drive this thing on the road just around town and not have to drive it like a manual and keep slapping the shifter around because to me that would get annoying after awhile, ESPECIALLY down shifting with my Art-carr.

But thats all just my thoughts, your rig might be a full out trail rig.
No flaming. I question people, because its my nature. My big thing, I will ask for peoples experiences, which tends to make people think I'm asking for them to recommned to me what to do. Its not quite the same thing. I like to conduct like a focus group, find all the things people think, then boil that down and make my decision. So I ask lots of questions.


Mine will see some drive time on the streets. But my TJ now is a stick, my Toyota was a stick, my SRT4 was a stick, all my hondas were sticks, my other TJ was a stick, and my CJ5 was a stick. So I'm used to shifting my 'performance' vehicles. For daily driving, I am fine with full auto. When towing, I am always pissed at the automatic, but I haven't run a tow rig with tow/haul mode, or more than 4 gears(well, have towed with super-10s, but those were sticks, too), so I think the newer ones are better. My XJs drove me mad on the trail.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2009, 10:19 AM   #46
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,793
iTrader: (58)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

LOL, so he's my trans history on this Heep.

Well, most of the time I was planning for my CJ3b, which was short, around 96" wheelbase, but the grill is much further back than a TJ.

So it started with a 22RE / L52 / Toy case -*sold that* (4.88 gears)
then decided to go 4.3 MPFI / 4L60e / Dana 300 - *sold that* ( 5.29 gears)
Then decided to go 4.3 TBI / SM 465 / Dana 300 - *sold that* (4.10 gears)
Then decided to go 4.3 TBI / TH350 / Dana 300 - *sold that* (5.29 gears)

Then I decided to switch to a longer Jeep, which changed the role. The CJ3b was 95% a wheeler, I coudl have lived with the TH350 and 5.29s, for the occasional trip to work.

The new Jeep is a 1969 CJ6, with a 72+ front clip, at 104" wheelbase. I gain about 15" of driveshaft in the CJ6, due to the relationship of the engine to axles. So I have room for the whole family now. So I'd also like it to see more street time.

So I've been waffling over using the TBI 4.3 I still have, or something else. Decided to go to a V8, and I have a 5.3 coming next week.

Parts I still have:

Dana 300
TH350 to Dana 300 adapter
700R4 with 350 TBI converter, and NP208 adapter.

In terms of length:

SM465 was around 21.5-22" long, but hangs down 3" lower, so needed to be raised up and caused problems.
My 4L60e was a mid-late style, which is 24.5" long adapted to the D300.
My TH350 is 24.8" long adapted to the D300
My 700R4 will be 27" long adapted to the D300

In any case, I should be fine for angles/length, I believe. My tub is 10" longer in the back than a TJ, it makes a big difference.

I should start a new build thread this weekend on the Jeep..
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 06:41 AM   #47
knaffie
Senior Member
 
knaffie's Avatar
 
Join Date: 01-13-08
Location: home is where I hang my hat
Posts: 1,916
iTrader: (11)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

I didn't read this entire thread, but thought I would throw my $.02 in. I had a TH350 built with a full manual valve body and I love it for offroading. Coming from a stick shift, this is awesome. Shifts are pretty much instant. I run an Art Carr shifter and it works great.

For a daily driver, I would have to say you would want it set up different than mine. The only thing I'm not thrilled about mine is that on the pavement, downshifts are pretty violent, even if you're idling. Barks the tires every time. Talked to the guy who built it and he said he could change that if I wanted, but I'm fine with it offroad. Once your tires hit the dirt, you don't even notice it.

Quick video. Behoid the power of the 4.3! Certainly no problems shifting fast enough to avoid the rev limiter enough in low range. This was my first time out with this trans too.

Bundy Hill 9-12-09 :: MVI_3214.flv video by knaffie - Photobucket

As far as temps, I run the lines through the radiator, then through the cooler, and I have no issues with temperature. I have a Taurus fan pulling through the radiator and the cooler for this is in front of that. I also have a dedicated fan for the trans cooler and I've never had to turn it on yet.
knaffie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 09:23 PM   #48
ScOoTeR
hoo dat. wat.
 
ScOoTeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Howell
Posts: 21,607
iTrader: (36)
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
Again, how would suggest to set up the TV cable?
I'd imagine he'd set the angle for the best anti-squat and go from there...

__________________
@clarkstoncracker
ScOoTeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #49
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,793
iTrader: (58)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScOoTeR View Post
I'd imagine he'd set the angle for the best anti-squat and go from there...

I looked at the motor this weekend, I can't find anything external tot he throttle body that moves at all, so no where that I've seen to weld an arm or anything on it.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 11:50 PM   #50
wrangler90
Ddddy daycare 4x4 club
 
wrangler90's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-28-09
Location: Traverse city
Posts: 53
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
LOL, so he's my trans history on this Heep.

Well, most of the time I was planning for my CJ3b, which was short, around 96" wheelbase, but the grill is much further back than a TJ.

So it started with a 22RE / L52 / Toy case -*sold that* (4.88 gears)
then decided to go 4.3 MPFI / 4L60e / Dana 300 - *sold that* ( 5.29 gears)
Then decided to go 4.3 TBI / SM 465 / Dana 300 - *sold that* (4.10 gears)
Then decided to go 4.3 TBI / TH350 / Dana 300 - *sold that* (5.29 gears)

Then I decided to switch to a longer Jeep, which changed the role. The CJ3b was 95% a wheeler, I coudl have lived with the TH350 and 5.29s, for the occasional trip to work.

The new Jeep is a 1969 CJ6, with a 72+ front clip, at 104" wheelbase. I gain about 15" of driveshaft in the CJ6, due to the relationship of the engine to axles. So I have room for the whole family now. So I'd also like it to see more street time.

So I've been waffling over using the TBI 4.3 I still have, or something else. Decided to go to a V8, and I have a 5.3 coming next week.

Parts I still have:

Dana 300
TH350 to Dana 300 adapter
700R4 with 350 TBI converter, and NP208 adapter.

In terms of length:

SM465 was around 21.5-22" long, but hangs down 3" lower, so needed to be raised up and caused problems.
My 4L60e was a mid-late style, which is 24.5" long adapted to the D300.
My TH350 is 24.8" long adapted to the D300
My 700R4 will be 27" long adapted to the D300

In any case, I should be fine for angles/length, I believe. My tub is 10" longer in the back than a TJ, it makes a big difference.

I should start a new build thread this weekend on the Jeep..
wow, these are all interesting. Maybe put each one together and write a revue on each for real world wheeling? *edit* what specifically worked, didnt work, and why? "sold that" makes me wonder how long you ran the setup, or if you just did some jackstand wheeling and moved on...

Last edited by wrangler90; October 27th, 2009 at 11:56 PM.
wrangler90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 12:24 AM   #51
whiterhino
I'm not old, honest...
 
whiterhino's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03-07-06
Location: Davisburg MI
Posts: 22,344
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Default

Go with the TH350. Then you'll be cool like that white jeep.
whiterhino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 08:50 AM   #52
Haggar
Covered in mud...
 
Haggar's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-06-05
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 17,793
iTrader: (58)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrangler90 View Post
wow, these are all interesting. Maybe put each one together and write a revue on each for real world wheeling? *edit* what specifically worked, didnt work, and why? "sold that" makes me wonder how long you ran the setup, or if you just did some jackstand wheeling and moved on...
Sadly, never drove any of those. I just horsetrade parts all the time.

Well, I did drive the 22RE/L52/ for years, that worked very well, but you had to flog it all the time and it had no power.
Haggar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 10:22 AM   #53
scramblerman72
Moonlight stomper
 
scramblerman72's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-15-05
Location: Fenton
Posts: 5,944
iTrader: (20)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to scramblerman72 Send a message via MSN to scramblerman72 Send a message via Yahoo to scramblerman72
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
OK, you've all hit on it, especially Bones. Jason, it is not the delay in the shifter or the trans, as Bryce said, it's the ability to hit the timing dead nuts when you want it while bouncing around. Most of the guys that drag race, like Tippy's dad are set up for that and only that. My observations of most of the sand dragsters are setup very similar to a pavement dragster. They squat putting pressure to the rear tires and go like hell in a straight line. And that's pretty much all they do. As you said, Tippy's dad's rig goes almost immediately from first into second to the point where you hardly notice him doing it. That description tells me that he has to be poised and primed to be thinking about shifting. That's great until he's doing that AND worring about a nasty uphill with obstacles. Maybe my suspension is a piece of shit. but I've worked at it pretty hard to up shift at the right time and find that the engine winds up so fast that I'm either hitting it too early or too late.

In the same token, take a look at the video Bones took of me on Impossible hill. Now, worry about upshifting at exactly the perfect moment while trying to steer on a steep hill that's bouncing you around. Or................ put it in second gear, hammer it, let it shift when it needs to and worry about steering.

More than once, I've been one of the only ones, if not the FIRST one to make a hill. How is that possible with my shitty setup?

I can't think of more than a couple times where I wished I could start out in second gear instead of first. I'm not saying that a FMVB is bad. I'm saying I don't see any strong advantage.

Oh, regarding the billavista writeup, I've modified my shifter to run D to R and back with no stops. I think it's way more important to grab R when climbing a tree than hitting N and coasting back off.

its not that hard people do it all the time in manuals

I run a MVB in all my hi-po stuff with enough seat time its second nature. its not like it had to take a split second and slap a shift up or down when needed and still way faster then a manual But you get to stay in the gas peddle
even on my street cars I wouldn't even know I was shifting it just happens just like a stick...u get used to it

as far as shifting to fast you either start in 2nd or shift as you are hammering down, thats what I have done in the past, The scrambler I would start in low/3rd gear when mud draging so I was right in to max wheel speed and floated on top. if I ran through the gears it would sink more and not get right on top... so ya FMVB have their advantage
scramblerman72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 11:01 AM   #54
ScOoTeR
hoo dat. wat.
 
ScOoTeR's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-09-05
Location: Howell
Posts: 21,607
iTrader: (36)
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
I looked at the motor this weekend, I can't find anything external tot he throttle body that moves at all, so no where that I've seen to weld an arm or anything on it.
You won't.

That's an electronic TB driven by a stepper motor (or it should be) - we could probably gin up a actuator to operate a k/d - but IMHO, if you're used to a M/T, go with a manual valve body.
__________________
@clarkstoncracker
ScOoTeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > 4x4 Talk > General Tech

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Page generated in 0.39355 seconds with 62 queries