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Old October 14th, 2009, 10:27 PM   #21
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I have always run a FMVB in my offroad rigs.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 12:52 AM   #22
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fmvb is also my choice
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Old October 15th, 2009, 06:27 AM   #23
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OK, someone please explain to me how you can up shift a MVB fast enough while in low range. When I hammer it, my shift from first to second is within a VERY short distance. I have a Hurst V-matic shifter which gives me the ability to up shift manually. There's no way I can up shift as quickly as the trans does it if I leave it in D. I've tried.

Please use layman's terms.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 08:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
What vehicles have you successfully transplanted in an LS motor and 4L60e with a D300 tcase and got them shifting nicely in both high and low range?

I've been helping Benny87 get his 5.3 cable tb, 4l60, atlas figured out and phil, prostock3 has a twisted customs buggy with an LS1, 4l60 and atlas. He had it programmed by jims performance and he has a switch on the dash for low range shift points and high range shift points. you could wire it up automatically using a factory low range indicator light.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 08:51 AM   #25
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I've been helping Benny87 get his 5.3 cable tb, 4l60, atlas figured out and phil, prostock3 has a twisted customs buggy with an LS1, 4l60 and atlas. He had it programmed by jims performance and he has a switch on the dash for low range shift points and high range shift points. you could wire it up automatically using a factory low range indicator light.
Where they are using a switch. Where is the VSS? Mine will be in front of the t-case, which makes me think it will work decent as-is?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 10:34 AM   #26
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Where they are using a switch. Where is the VSS? Mine will be in front of the t-case, which makes me think it will work decent as-is?
Your VSS will not know you are in low range, you'll be going 3mph, it'll think you are going 9mph, might shift you when you don't want to shift. Works OK for some people, not for others.

I have seen first hand how un-fun a 4L60e is when its not shifting right due to this.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 10:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
OK, someone please explain to me how you can up shift a MVB fast enough while in low range. When I hammer it, my shift from first to second is within a VERY short distance. I have a Hurst V-matic shifter which gives me the ability to up shift manually. There's no way I can up shift as quickly as the trans does it if I leave it in D. I've tried.

Please use layman's terms.
In yours, you decide to hammer it, put pedal with your foot, after certain delay, the trans shifts.

In a FMVB, you decide to hammer it, move lever one click while you hammer it, after certain delay, the trans shifts.

I guess I'm not seeing the difference. Its the same as it'd be if I was driving a manual trans...

I think shifter has a lot to do with it, and I think no shifter out there works great without modifications, with the Art-Carr/Winters style being the best. Too bad I had one for a 700R4 and sold it to KillerB


I would guess if yous shifts slowly with your shifter, its either the shifter being slow physically to shift, or the valve body/line pressure/springs/etc.

So you are saying if you are in the '1' detent, and you shift to the '2' detent, its too delayed for you?

I guess I'm not understanding that you are already in 1st and you hammer it and it shifts to 2nd. That sounds backwards, sound slike it should *down*shift, from 2 to 1st if you are hammering it. If you are just going through 1st, to redline and shifting normally into 2nd, I can't see where thats any issue.

Riding in Tippy's Jeep, 1st gear is over so fast its not even there, and he's banging into 2nd. Shifting to 2nd with the pedal down WOT with several hundred HP and paddles, seemd to shift instantaneously and hit like a freight train.

Last edited by Haggar; October 15th, 2009 at 10:46 AM.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by 95geo View Post
you could wire it up automatically using a factory low range indicator light.

If I was running a GM tcase....which I'm not.

I will have a VSS signal from my Jeep case to feed my electronic speedometer, and I might feed that as well for decels/idle, but the PPM isn't correct for the GM application.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 11:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post
If I was running a GM tcase....which I'm not.
A dana 300 has an indicator light sending unit on it, there's one wire coming from it.

Jim is saying that the timing on your hand isnt as good as the trans knowing exactly what rpm to shift at. If you end up shifting 500 rpm before redline or bounce off the rev limiter once or twice before you shift then that's going to make a difference, to some people that's a make it or break it deal. You really need to have a reverse pattern FMVB in order to not screw yourself if you need to catch a possible roll in progress if you have positive stops so you can hammer on the shifter and accurately hit the gears every time. If you take the stops out and rely on the detents I foresee a lot of over/undershifting.

Benny87 has his VSS between the trans and t-case in the adapter, not sure about phils but I assume it's the same place. I dont really see how you can screw up shift points with the VSS before the case, the output speed is the output speed, as far as the ecm is concerned you're always in high range. If you send the tail shaft signal to the tcm and have the trans-t-case mounted VSS for the ecm signal then that could cause the issues. with the pcm and one speed sensor I dont see how it can get confused.

I havent looked at the wiring schematics for the specific years we're talking about but how many output speed inputs does the pcm have? the 99-04 stuff should all be an integrated pcm, the later stuff went to an ecm and tcm setup which could cause more issues with getting the trans to work right.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 11:13 AM   #30
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My motor's a 07.


How'd we ever know how to drive manual tranmissions?

Why do many many many drag racers run FMVBs if they were not quick/accurate shifting?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 11:18 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by whiterhino View Post
OK, someone please explain to me how you can up shift a MVB fast enough while in low range. When I hammer it, my shift from first to second is within a VERY short distance. I have a Hurst V-matic shifter which gives me the ability to up shift manually. There's no way I can up shift as quickly as the trans does it if I leave it in D. I've tried.

Please use layman's terms.
I guess my laymans terms would be... you have to know how to drive

IMO a FMVB is basically a manual transmission without the worries of rolling on hills, overheating clutches, or needing a clutch pedal. You still select a gear, just like a manual. A reverse pattern lets you flip from 1 to R with one notch.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

Why do many many many drag racers run FMVBs if they were not quick/accurate shifting?
serious drag racers run a standard pattern FMVB and then run an air solenoid shifter triggered by their tach. the pneumatic actuator makes the shifts for them with precision no human can duplicate. so basically they turn their automatic into a manual and then back into an automatic. seems kind of counter productive doesnt it?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #33
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serious drag racers run a standard pattern FMVB and then run an air solenoid shifter triggered by their tach. the pneumatic actuator makes the shifts for them with precision no human can duplicate. so basically they turn their automatic into a manual and then back into an automatic. seems kind of counter productive doesnt it?
LOL, must everything with you be the $$$$$$$$$ uber complicated way, or else its crap?
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Old October 15th, 2009, 12:54 PM   #34
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I guess my laymans terms would be... you have to know how to drive

IMO a FMVB is basically a manual transmission without the worries of rolling on hills, overheating clutches, or needing a clutch pedal. You still select a gear, just like a manual. A reverse pattern lets you flip from 1 to R with one notch.
YEah, I figured I'd try the shifter that billavista did the article on, since its $100 cheaper than another art carr, and cut the gates so its 1 to n without pulling the lever or 1 to R with pulling the lever.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 01:03 PM   #35
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OK, you've all hit on it, especially Bones. Jason, it is not the delay in the shifter or the trans, as Bryce said, it's the ability to hit the timing dead nuts when you want it while bouncing around. Most of the guys that drag race, like Tippy's dad are set up for that and only that. My observations of most of the sand dragsters are setup very similar to a pavement dragster. They squat putting pressure to the rear tires and go like hell in a straight line. And that's pretty much all they do. As you said, Tippy's dad's rig goes almost immediately from first into second to the point where you hardly notice him doing it. That description tells me that he has to be poised and primed to be thinking about shifting. That's great until he's doing that AND worring about a nasty uphill with obstacles. Maybe my suspension is a piece of shit. but I've worked at it pretty hard to up shift at the right time and find that the engine winds up so fast that I'm either hitting it too early or too late.

In the same token, take a look at the video Bones took of me on Impossible hill. Now, worry about upshifting at exactly the perfect moment while trying to steer on a steep hill that's bouncing you around. Or................ put it in second gear, hammer it, let it shift when it needs to and worry about steering.

More than once, I've been one of the only ones, if not the FIRST one to make a hill. How is that possible with my shitty setup?

I can't think of more than a couple times where I wished I could start out in second gear instead of first. I'm not saying that a FMVB is bad. I'm saying I don't see any strong advantage.

Oh, regarding the billavista writeup, I've modified my shifter to run D to R and back with no stops. I think it's way more important to grab R when climbing a tree than hitting N and coasting back off.

Last edited by whiterhino; October 15th, 2009 at 01:14 PM.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 01:33 PM   #36
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LOL, must everything with you be the $$$$$$$$$ uber complicated way, or else its crap?
How did you come to that ASSumption? really? I gave you 4 or so examples of how to make your current setup work without spending more than a few dollars on some misc. crap, all of which will work just fine.

Regarding the 4l60, for what you're trying to work around and the amount of money it would take to make it happen the way you want (provided you are buying things new) you would be better off spending an extra $500 or so and getting the best of everything.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 01:48 PM   #37
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YEah, I figured I'd try the shifter that billavista did the article on, since its $100 cheaper than another art carr, and cut the gates so its 1 to n without pulling the lever or 1 to R with pulling the lever.
I haven't read that one yet. I'm just running the cheap B&M sport shifter with about 5 minutes worth of dremel work to eliminate some gates, and add a larger gate between R and N. I found myself in 1st, trying to slam R and it would fly all the way to P.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 03:21 PM   #38
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I'm saying I don't see any strong advantage.
Which, I'm not doing it to gain a performance advantage, really.

I'm looking at me having 3 options:

TH350
700R4
4L60e

The TH350 gives me issues with gearing (mostly lack of OD)

The 700R4 needs a cable run and adjusted, or run manual

The 4L60e needs wiring / VSS tuning

I have a 700R4 and converter, I don't have a 4L60e.

I like to manually shift gears.

So I figure I'll run the manual valve body and see how I like it. Its the easiest thing for me to do. Its cheaper to buy a manual valve body, than another transmission and torque converter.
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Old October 15th, 2009, 03:27 PM   #39
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I haven't read that one yet. I'm just running the cheap B&M sport shifter with about 5 minutes worth of dremel work to eliminate some gates, and add a larger gate between R and N. I found myself in 1st, trying to slam R and it would fly all the way to P.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/shifter/
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Old October 15th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #40
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So, I compare the two like this:

Shifting from any forward gear, to neutral, reverse, or park, is dependant more or less completely on your shifter.

So for auto and manual valve body, those are the same.

Now for shifts from 1 - 2, and 2 - 3, and 3 - 2 and 2 - 1, then thats where differences come in.

(again, I'm coming from driving a stick, so I'm used to shifting).

In vehcile design, the most important part is to set up for rpm range and gearing to make it so you never *have* to shift in most situations. Lower enough to have power, high enough to have rpm range.

downshifting, I never have had an automatic that downshifts when I want it to 100% of the time, so I'm very happy to do that myself. If you're going up a hill and bogging and need to downshift, see the blurb in yellow. lose weight, gain power, or change the gears.

Upshifting, the gates can be designed easy enough to have a positing stop where you need it, say 1/2 or 2/3, so you just put it back and are in the next gear.
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