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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:28 PM   #1
clarkstoncracker
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If you were to attend an "offroad dinner"

At a hotel, that had, lets say 100 rigs, and people went out in groups of 10 (on their own) to wheel, and the DNR said they would issue tickets to everybody who went offroading because the "offroad dinner" was really an "OFFROAD GATHERING" and you exceeded the limit of an "offroad gathering" due to the fact the DNR were completely resistive about issuing a permit, would you still go, and if you received a ticket, would you fight it?


Do you think its right that the DNR can tell you what public roads you can, and cannot use if your group exceeded 20 people? Do you think they have the ability to restrict what you do as a licensed driver of a licensed vehicle on public roads?

purely hypothetical of course...
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:34 PM   #2
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Funny, I live in a very scenic area. Every fall groups get together to have "club rides" around Gun Lake. The roads that circle the lake have some decent views, hills, and curves. I live right on one of the curves and every fall I see Dozens of motorcycle clubs in large groups, last year seen one mustang group, one miata group, and of course orv groups. There is also several miles of trails in the state land as well.


So then how can those groups get 20+ together and not pull permits to ride on the public roads within the state land?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:35 PM   #3
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who did what now?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheapThrillB2 View Post
Funny, I live in a very scenic area. Every fall groups get together to have "club rides" around Gun Lake. The roads that circle the lake have some decent views, hills, and curves. I live right on one of the curves and every fall I see Dozens of motorcycle clubs in large groups, last year seen one mustang group, one miata group, and of course orv groups. There is also several miles of trails in the state land as well.


So then how can those groups get 20+ together and not pull permits to ride on the public roads within the state land?
Oh, So you're telling me that there are large groups that use the public trail system who never even tried to pull permits, and they're not told that everybody would be ticketed?

Just curious...

Wouldn't you think if that mustang group went to pull a permit, the DNR would be extremely happy that you were handling it in that way, and would happily issue a permit for the roads you requested to drive on? (remember, I'm hypothetically speaking about legal two track roads on public land)
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:37 PM   #5
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In this day of Green is in, would you really want to give the Greenies ammo for closing roads and public lands to ORV use? Right now, the politicians and such are on the bandwagon to "go Green", so would this not be used against us?

Even if every one of the tickets was voided, it would still be reported that the tickets were issued for ORV'ers using trails illegally. The momentum is in their favor to get trails and land closed. Why give them more to use?

Myself, I don't think I would want to see what could be done prior to the hypothetical event to make things work 'legally'.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:37 PM   #6
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who did what now?
Nobody did anything..

I'm just trying to get a feel about how the large group of ORV people feel about the DNR having the ability to dictate how many people can use public roads.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:38 PM   #7
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if i had a rig i would go


its bs if they think they can say how many people can take a trail




how about this create 10 different style "club" stickers (as cheap as possible) then give 10 each of the stickers out to each jeep.
that way you are all from a different group and just state " hey its nice day to wheel, me and 9 of my friends decided to go for a drive"

and hey look at that 90 other people decided to wheel to on the same day nope officer never herard of that off road group just me and my 9 buddies
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icemanii View Post
In this day of Green is in, would you really want to give the Greenies ammo for closing roads and public lands to ORV use? Right now, the politicians and such are on the bandwagon to "go Green", so would this not be used against us?

Even if every one of the tickets was voided, it would still be reported that the tickets were issued for ORV'ers using trails illegally. The momentum is in their favor to get trails and land closed. Why give them more to use?

Myself, I don't think I would want to see what could be done prior to the hypothetical event to make things work 'legally'.
I totally agree with the ticket part, and it would look horrible in the newspapers. But in the same aspect, how do you read the laws about using a public trail system? Should we let "big government" or "overzealous DNR" over step the boundries of preventing free travel on public trail systems?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Oh, So you're telling me that there are large groups that use the public trail system who never even tried to pull permits, and they're not told that everybody would be ticketed?

Just curious...

Wouldn't you think if that mustang group went to pull a permit, the DNR would be extremely happy that you were handling it in that way, and would happily issue a permit for the roads you requested to drive on? (remember, I'm hypothetically speaking about legal two track roads on public land)
There not using the "trail system". But the "Public Roads" that traverse through the state land. Many of the "trails" show up on gps, mapquest, google as roads.

So if cars can have "group rides" on public roads why can't ORV users have group rides on "public roads/trails".
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:44 PM   #10
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1badzuk View Post
if i had a rig i would go


its bs if they think they can say how many people can take a trail




how about this create 10 different style "club" stickers (as cheap as possible) then give 10 each of the stickers out to each jeep.
that way you are all from a different group and just state " hey its nice day to wheel, me and 9 of my friends decided to go for a drive"

and hey look at that 90 other people decided to wheel to on the same day nope officer never herard of that off road group just me and my 9 buddies
I have a better one. why not make one up that says "swine flu tour 2009" and see how quick they are to pull you over?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:46 PM   #12
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From our good friends over at http://ATVNATION.COM

Michigan Trails and Recreation Alliance of Land and the Environment Link

TO: Mi-TRALE Members, Associates, Friends, Media
FR: Skip Schulz, Mi-TRALE President
RE: DNR Western UP Citizens Advisory Council Meeting Last Night Recap
DT: Tuesday, May 19, 2009

I want to thank all the Michigan DNR, The DNR's Western UP Citizens Advisory Council, The Konteka, and all the people that made it to last night's meeting at the Konteka in White Pine.

The DNR gave their presentation on the current status of ORV Group Fee's, the current Mi DNR ORV Signing Program, and proposed changes. After the DNR Presentation I gave a presentation as to the voluntary and Mi-TRALE paid ORV Signing program, along with what the Mi-TRALE Board of Directors decided to propose in regards to ORV Group Fee's.

Before both sides were given the opportunity to present it's case, the DNR's UP Field Director, Stacey Welling, stated that the MiDNR will allow Mi-TRALE to keep it's signs posted on the Mi DNR Designated ORV Trails.

After both presentations, a number of people spoke in support of Mi-TRALE's ORV Signing Program and opposition to the current ORV Group Fee structure. We had people from Wisconsin, along with different communities in the UP voice their support of Mi-TRALE. Plus we had a large number of people that took the time to attend the meeting to show support for Mi-TRALE.

Then the WUP-CAC Board voted overwhelmingly to support the Mi-TRALE ORV Trail Signing program. The WUP-CAC also agreed with Mi-TRALE and the MiDNR to 'compromise' on the ORV Group Fee structure. The compromise is to allow groups, clubs, and families to have up to 75 riders at an 'event' before the Permit Process goes into effect. However Private and Commercial operations, guide services, tours, and events where fee's are charges would stay at 20.
The third motion that I asked the WUP-CAC to support is to ask the Mi DNR, Natural Resources Commission, to work with the State Legislature in allowing ORV's the use of the shoulder of a State or Federal Highway Bridge where an ORV Trail goes to a creek, wetland, or river crossing. The WUP-CAC also supported this.

It's important to remember that this FANTASTIC support from the WUP-CAC is only a 'step,' in a long process of actually taking these reccomendations to the next 'level.' Now we need the support of the Michigan Natural Resources Commission, then the State Legislature.

We now will see if the Citizens Advisory Council's have any 'input' into the legislative process.

It is also important for all of us to realize that the best way to make things happen legislatively is by working WITH local, county, state, and federal agencies and government. Mi-TRALE has worked very hard over the past 8 years in developing a solid cooperative workikng relationship with the Mi DNR. It showed last night by the DNR's willingness to listen, reason, and use common sense on the Signing and ORV Group Fee issues.

What's Next for Mi-TRALE?
While we do not know if anyone from Mi-TRALE will be asked to participate in any further discussion regarding a Consistant, Standardized ORV Trail Signing program in Michigan, we do know that the DNR realizes the 3 year program on ORV Trail Signing that Mi-TRALE implemented WORKS. Nor do we know if the Michigan ORV Advisory Council is going to agree with the numerous local, county, and state groups, organizations, agencies, and ORV Riders from all over in supporting the Mi-TRALE ORV Trail Signing program, but we can always hope! Nor do we know if the Natural Resources Commission is going to finally address this issue, or whether the State Legislature will follow the fantastic support of Mi-TRALE's Signing program.

What we do know is that it was the same process for getting HB4323 (ORV Road Ordinance) passed, is the same process for making progress in changing from mere "Confidence Markers" to an ORV Trail Signing Program, such as the one Mi-TRALE has been successfull with, is now starting to roll.

Other Projects on the table for Mi-TRALE.
Mi-TRALE continues to keep our fingers 'crossed,' hoping that the DNR's Forestry Division will approve the Mi-TRALE Equestrian Park. Once the DNR approves this, we then will go for support from the Ontonagon County Forestry Committee, then the County Board.

Mi-TRALE is also continuing the long process of getting the neccessary local, county, and state support for the Scramble area. This afternoon, Mi-TRALE will take another step by getting the Ontonagon County Planning Commission to agree to amend it's Recreation Plan to include a "Scramble" Area.

All this, and we're still working on ORV Trails!
Last weekend a good number of Mi-TRALE volunteers were out working on the SB and IRM Trails. The only Michigan DNR Designated ORV Routes that we have left to do by this weekend, is the IRM Trail from Iron River to Marenesco. Then we'll continue to work on the P, PF, E, and LL Trails. The Non-Designated C Trail is complete, and the BN MiDNR Designated Trail has also been completed.

Thanks again to all those that are helping on the trails!

ATV Safety Training Class is THIS SATURDAY.
Mi-TRALE member DNR Certified ATV Instructors will be holding another ATV Safety Class for children between 12 and 15 this Saturday behind my house at 610 Greenland Road in Ontonagon. The Classroom portion will start at 9:00 am EST, with the Field Training beginning at 12:30 pm EST. Those that successfully complete the course, and pass the test, will be given a temporary DNR ATV Safety Certificate. The MiDNR will then send out their permanent ATV Safety Certificate in the mail. We still have a few openings for students. If you're interested, call 906-884-9101. We do have a $3.00 fee for lunch. The class and field training is provided at no charge by the MiDNR and Mi-TRALE.

Skip Schulz
Mi-TRALE President
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:50 PM   #13
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You are trying to compare a 'run' on paved streets with using the trail system. Apples and oranges really. And by the way, the RICO act covers law enforcement being able to stop groups on the street, just not enforced as much.

As for the 'event', it is a gray area.

(h) "Event" means a single, structured, organized, consolidated,
scheduled meeting or occurrence which is on state-owned lands and to which 1
or both of the following apply:
(i) A fee or donation is required for participation.
(ii) The number of people involved is 20 or more individuals.


(f) "Designated route" means forest roads that have been properly signed
on the ground for ORV use.
(g) "Designated trail" means a 1-track path or way which is capable of
travel by a 2- to 4-wheel vehicle that is less than 50 inches in width and
which has been properly signed on the ground for ORV use.
i) "Forest road" means a hard surfaced road, a gravel or dirt road,
or another route capable of being traveled by a 2-wheel drive
4-wheeled conventional vehicle designated for highway use, but does not
include an interstate, state, or county highway.




You would not need a permit if you choose to stay on interstate, state, or county highways. Moving into the woods makes it one of the other designations.

Still feel it would be used against us. And with the way areas/lands are being closed, I would not risk it myself.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:54 PM   #14
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How would this be different than people going on fall color tours?
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:56 PM   #15
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i would go and if ticketed I would fight said ticket. My defense; discrimination. exhibit A, motor cycles. B, classic cars. both of which can be seen on any given summer evening (in my are anyway) driving in large groups, on public roads, without permits.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 08:57 PM   #16
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They don't pull permits for funeral processions. If the trail ride is merely like a color tour or something similar, I don't see anything different if it is just on forest/county/seasonal roads.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:32 PM   #17
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Think about the other hand of things like Bikers going to sturgis in Clubs and Groups riding together or people on Boats meeting up at a place like a Island to have beers ect..

hell just a few weeks there were 500 Bikes all riding Telegraph to Biker Bobs place..


No one got tickets yes it was a event but no permits to ride all together just a permit to have the event at Biker Bobs..

don't get me started on other things like snowmobiles and ect...


Just isn't right about how the 4x4 Community get the raw end on things

Last edited by Rockstar; September 23rd, 2009 at 10:13 PM.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:42 PM   #18
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My word may not carry much stock and I agree with general sentiment already stated, however, I would be cautious about using the "well other people do it without permits" defense. Agreed there seems to be an inconsistency in the enforcement of any laws, but I dont think that would give your hypothetical group an automatic "grandfathers clause" for your ride.
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 10:07 PM   #19
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Yep, try comparing a charity motorcycle run or a funeral to your wheeling event as a defense. Maybe you guys should point out a Patriot Guard escort as an example.


Let me know how that works for you.

But by all means, listen to Rockstar, he is a wizard! (you can tell by the grammar and spelling)

(and how do you know there were not permits pulled for that run? I can tell you, dealerships do pull permits, secure permission, etc. to hold these charity events.)
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 10:13 PM   #20
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I think the real question here is......................................what's for dinner?
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