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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:34 AM   #81
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How can you consider any sources you find on the web to be gospel? Can you acknowledge that the left is being very deceptive about the bill, I mean, if they have the best interest of everybody at heart it should be fairly easy for them to explain it, and gain support. It is a power grab. If you're looking for a "credible source" you could be sitting in the fucking oval office and not have one, because they don't even know what they're doing. They had to adjust their deficit projection by what, 2 trillion dollars? Oh well, it's only 2


Once again, in the case of the wording in the health care bill, I can't think of a better source of information that the bill itself. On the official Congressional web sites.

If you have a better, unbiased source, I would be happy to go check it out.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:35 AM   #82
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Once again, in the case of the wording in the health care bill, I can't think of a better source of information that the bill itself. On the official Congressional web sites.
Do you realize that's not the one anybody will be voting on?
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #83
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Do you realize that's not the one anybody will be voting on?


Yes, I know. But that is the one people are refferring to most of the time. The bill is being changed and re-written almost everyday by different committees.

I have also posted links to the websites for the House and the Senate, along with the list of committees so people can go and look themselves. There you can find the latest versions, overviews and other activities pertinent to the bill.

But, the talking points have been based on the orginal bill introduced in the House, and that exact bill is still available for us to see.

If you have a link to the latest version, please post it up so we can all look at it.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:52 AM   #84
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Yes, I know. But that is the one people are refferring to most of the time. The bill is being changed and re-written almost everyday by different committees.

I have also posted links to the websites for the House and the Senate, along with the list of committees so people can go and look themselves. There you can find the latest versions, overviews and other activities pertinent to the bill.

But, the talking points have been based on the orginal bill introduced in the House, and that exact bill is still available for us to see.

If you have a link to the latest version, please post it up so we can all look at it.
Government forced insurance, Bad Idea. It dosen't matter how you write the bill its a bad idea. Saddling the working guy with more welfare debt, Bad Idea It dosen't matter how you write the bill it's a welfare program, its a bad idea.
All the arguing and debating of details in a bill thats a bad idea dosen't change the fact that its a bad idea......
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Old August 26th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #85
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Government forced insurance, Bad Idea. It dosen't matter how you write the bill its a bad idea. Saddling the working guy with more welfare debt, Bad Idea It dosen't matter how you write the bill it's a welfare program, its a bad idea.
All the arguing and debating of details in a bill thats a bad idea dosen't change the fact that its a bad idea......
X2 I'm not going in the back yard to dissect different pieces of shit to see what's in them.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #86
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Again, I don't think I have given an opinion on whether the bill is good or bad, I have only taken the talking points and researched them. And in most cases was able to refute them.

My whole point of this exercise, which I seem to be failing at, is to get people to research things for themselves. We live in an age when lack of knowledge on a subject is the direct result of not wanting to educate yourself. It is all out there for us to find, it just takes a few taps on a keyboard and some patience to search out the facts.

Then you can at least argue with those facts. What is so wrong with that?

You will also have opinions, these should be based on your own thoughts when you get the facts. We will all feel differently about subjects, but we should at least feel from an educated stand point.

I will continue to refute BS talking points, but I will mostly refute the right, because yes, although I am mostly a moderate, I do lean a bit left.....on some subjects.

I challenge each of you to educate yourself on the facts, before you make your assumptions and formulate your opinions. Don't let the talking heads on either side win.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #87
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Again, I don't think I have given an opinion on whether the bill is good or bad, I have only taken the talking points and researched them. And in most cases was able to refute them.

My whole point of this exercise, which I seem to be failing at, is to get people to research things for themselves. We live in an age when lack of knowledge on a subject is the direct result of not wanting to educate yourself. It is all out there for us to find, it just takes a few taps on a keyboard and some patience to search out the facts.

Then you can at least argue with those facts. What is so wrong with that?

You will also have opinions, these should be based on your own thoughts when you get the facts. We will all feel differently about subjects, but we should at least feel from an educated stand point.

I will continue to refute BS talking points, but I will mostly refute the right, because yes, although I am mostly a moderate, I do lean a bit left.....on some subjects.

I challenge each of you to educate yourself on the facts, before you make your assumptions and formulate your opinions. Don't let the talking heads on either side win.
Sadly, that's simply naive. We don't live in a world where the politicians tell you what they're really trying to accomplish. You have to read between the lines, and look at what they believed in before they were in the national spotlight. If you look at what Obama stood for and believed in before he was in the national spotlight, it was communism.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 11:42 AM   #88
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Pete the facts are government programs don't work, history has proven this time and again.
I do consider myself educated on government and the history of it as proven by the facts.

I don't need any "talking points" to make my case. Facts are facts.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 12:04 PM   #89
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I think we should give up all our rights. PeteC would be first in line.

This country was founded on having personal freedoms and liberty. The personal freedoms and liberty make it a giant PITA to the government, law enforcement, FBI, Secret Service, etc. If it were any different, we would not have protection and rights. We would not be the free country we are.

These rights do give criminals advantages, but also protect law abiding citizens. You can't pick and choose who gets rights and who doesn't. It just doesn't really work under our Constitution and the way it's set up when it comes to those basic rights.

Obama would probably bitch about these demonstrators, say how it's not right and how it's dangerous. I would expect nothing less, because this man wants to control and not govern.

I have the right to call someone an asshole. I have the right to not like someone because they are different than me.

It doesn't mean that what I said or what my feelings may be are politically correct, moral, or even ethical. They are still rights given to me under the Constitution.

The 2nd Amendment is no different. These people clearly have the right to do what they did, and are well within the boundaries of the law. I applaud them for that they did, because that takes a lot of guts to do that. Whether it may scare people, perceive others to believe it's dangerous or whatever else really has little to do with this argument.

Those opinions may drive law makers to feel differently, and since they don't ever look at facts nothing would ever show them how zero violence comes out of this unless self defense is used. I would love to see a lot of these laws try to be repealed though, it would not go over well.

Gun rights is much more than just owning guns. If the government strips your right away to effectively defend yourself, what next? Criminals still get a hold of them illegally, which puts us at much more of a threat. Sometimes I think that they don't want a large majority of people owning firearms because of what Thomas Jefferson said,

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Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 05:49 PM   #90
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You suck at the edit

There is a huge difference between voicing your opinion and carrying a loaded weapon when it comes to this type of situation.

Also, slightly off topic, there is a hhuge difference between voicing your opinion and disrupting an event.[/QUOTE]

Wrong again my mislead liberal friend.....

We, Americans, have a right to carry a loaded weapon.
We, Americans, have a right to voicing our opinion.
Those are both rights we Americans have, there is no difference.

If you voicing your opinion disrupts an event do you no longer have that right...

If disrupting an event is grounds for forfieting a right wouldn't that mean we don't have the right to protest.....
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Old August 26th, 2009, 08:33 PM   #91
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Pete the facts are government programs don't work, history has proven this time and again.
I do consider myself educated on government and the history of it as proven by the facts.

I don't need any "talking points" to make my case. Facts are facts.
Pete's school didnt have a "American History" class.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 09:18 AM   #92
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Actually, I did fairly well in History, thank you very much.

You all seem to miss at least part of the point I was trying to make. The written word.

Assumption seems to be a big part of peoples thinkings around here.

When Clinton was elected, we were all going to lose our guns because he was a liberal Democrat, did not happened. Same is said about Obama, have not seen him do anything in office to lead me to believe that will happen. When I do see him do something I will be against that policy.

But, you are all right, security and safety for the President are less important than a protester carrying a gun. So, when the next Republican President is elected, how many of you will go to support him when he is in town and legally open carry your firearms?

And I am really not sure why any of you think I am against the right to own and carry firearms?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 09:22 AM   #93
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You suck at the edit


Wrong again my mislead liberal friend.....

We, Americans, have a right to carry a loaded weapon.
We, Americans, have a right to voicing our opinion.
Those are both rights we Americans have, there is no difference.

If you voicing your opinion disrupts an event do you no longer have that right...

If disrupting an event is grounds for forfieting a right wouldn't that mean we don't have the right to protest.....


Have you heard that Sen. McCain had a woman thrown out of his town hall meeting in Phoenix yesterday? Not sure what she was trying to say with her first amendment rights, but he had her escorted out because she was interrupting him. I know, good for him, right? And if a Democrat had done that it would have another nail in the constitutions coffin.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 12:54 PM   #94
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Actually, I did fairly well in History, thank you very much.

You all seem to miss at least part of the point I was trying to make. The written word.

Assumption seems to be a big part of peoples thinkings around here.

When Clinton was elected, we were all going to lose our guns because he was a liberal Democrat, did not happened. Same is said about Obama, have not seen him do anything in office to lead me to believe that will happen. When I do see him do something I will be against that policy.

But, you are all right, security and safety for the President are less important than a protester carrying a gun. So, when the next Republican President is elected, how many of you will go to support him when he is in town and legally open carry your firearms?

And I am really not sure why any of you think I am against the right to own and carry firearms?
Come on Pete!! It sure wasn't for lack of trying!!
They got step one passed and all hell broke loose. It cost them the midterm elections.

What was the other thing that cost them? Oh yea, health care.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 12:58 PM   #95
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Have you heard that Sen. McCain had a woman thrown out of his town hall meeting in Phoenix yesterday? Not sure what she was trying to say with her first amendment rights, but he had her escorted out because she was interrupting him. I know, good for him, right? And if a Democrat had done that it would have another nail in the constitutions coffin.
In what context did this happen? I don't know the answer myself, I haven't seen the video or report of it yet.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:02 PM   #96
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In what context did this happen? I don't know the answer myself, I haven't seen the video or report of it yet.
The report was on MSNBC.

The context was she shouted over him as he was speaking.

What she said has not been reported yet, from what I can find.

And why is context suddenly important? We have all seen Democrats trying to speak and been shouted down. Is there a context that works for one and not for the other?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:07 PM   #97
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32577833...h_care_reform/

There is video now, but I could not make out what she was yelling.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #98
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The report was on MSNBC.

The context was she shouted over him as he was speaking.

What she said has not been reported yet, from what I can find.

And why is context suddenly important? We have all seen Democrats trying to speak and been shouted down. Is there a context that works for one and not for the other?
It does matter what she was shouting.
Didn't you just make a point somewhere about limited first amendment rights?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:26 PM   #99
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It does matter what she was shouting.
Didn't you just make a point somewhere about limited first amendment rights?

You are correct, I did. I said you can not yell fire in a crowded theater (unless there is a fire) and that rights only go so far as not to infringe on others rights.

Let's say what she was doing was asking a question, not "yelling fire". Obviously out of turn, but still exercising her first amendment rights as many have done during other town halls.

So, will you now question the legitimacy of people disrupting Democrats at thier town halls too?

Or was McCain wrong to have her removed?
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Old August 27th, 2009, 01:31 PM   #100
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at least she wasn't tazed
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