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Old August 24th, 2009, 04:53 PM   #61
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How many of those weapons were known about? if someone is going to try it, a law prohibiting firearms in the vicinity isn't going to stop them.
Yep, very true. If someone really wanted to take a shot at the President he's not likely to be carring the gun around for all to see beforehand.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 05:34 PM   #62
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If you really think that is how "liberals" (i.e. anyone that does not agree with you) think, you really need to get your head out of Limbaugh's Ass, or is that Hannity's, or Beck's. Or what ever other right wing nut job you get your "facts" from.


Oh, and by the way, immigrants (legal ones) do have rights. It is the illegal ones that should not have anything more than basic humans rights. They should be deported immediately.

BTW, basic human rights is a basic tenet of a free, democratic society, including the United States. You can not simply shoot people in the streets like dogs.
So you are telling me that the fact's I get are from nut job right wingers, ummmm
But the facts you get and decide to post here are from just regular normal people. Interesting how your normal people tend to only see things with a left slant, biased media, liberal story telling liars and the amazing thing is they are all flaming . Do you see something wrong with your distorted view? Maybe not as you use the same glasses as your liberal friends
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Old August 25th, 2009, 08:08 AM   #63
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Ask these guys if guns ever showed up around the president before:

Abraham Lincoln
James Abram Garfield
William McKinley
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Ronald Wilson Reagan
These were assassins, not ones out to intimidate the group
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Old August 25th, 2009, 11:40 AM   #64
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These were assassins, not ones out to intimidate the group

And how would you determine the difference?
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Old August 25th, 2009, 11:45 AM   #65
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And how would you determine the difference?
One of them you will see ahead of time. The other, you won't.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #66
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Please show me where the "right to fly" exists in the Constitution or any of the Amendments, as I am drawing a blank on that one.

Of course you are not going to find air travel in the Constitution, gee, no planes back then.

You are correct that there seems to be nothing specific to free travel.....unless you look further and research some case law.
Article IV, Sec. 2 has been refferred to in that rights in one state move with the person to other states.
Also, the word "Liberty" has been indicated to allow free movement among other rights.

I am no lawyer, but those that are seem to have determined that the Constitution does in fact allow for the individuals free travel.

However, the fundamental right to unrestricted travel is a big part of the ideals of this country. Modes of travel are defined by the age you are in.

So, if you have a pilots license, and you are flying, you are exercising the right to free travel via a mode available today. When the President is near, that mode, and right is restricted. Same as travel by car and even on foot. Your Liberties are temporarily suspended in favor of security for the President. But I don't hear a lot of people screaming about Constitutional rights infringements in that case.
So, temporary suspensions of the right to bear arms, in a specified zone, for a specified amount of time while the President is present should not be any more of a problem than the barricades keeping your car a fair distance away from the venue.

Hell, I lost my right to freedom of travel and the right to make a living when the Pope was in town in the 1980's. The Pope Mobile was housed at the Chrysler facility in Highland Park. And his motorcade went down Oakland Avenue. We could not work that Saturday unless we were considered essential personel.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 12:14 PM   #67
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Just so we are all on the same page, this is what you said and what I responded to:

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You would think they as in liberals care more the rights of immigrants and terrorists than the very people who live here. The people that help them with keeping our rights and freedoms intact




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So you are telling me that the fact's I get are from nut job right wingers, ummmm
But the facts you get and decide to post here are from just regular normal people. Interesting how your normal people tend to only see things with a left slant, biased media, liberal story telling liars and the amazing thing is they are all flaming . Do you see something wrong with your distorted view? Maybe not as you use the same glasses as your liberal friends


When you get actual "Facts" from the right wing nut jobs, then they will indeed be facts.

When you regurgitate the BS they are putting out there, the out right lies, the assumptions based on a fantasy, well, yes, then you need to get your head out of thier asses.

I don't care where your facts come from, just make sure they are facts.

Even the spins and twists have some basis in reality.

Now, please remind me what "normal people" I have gotten my facts from lately, and on what subjects.

I have gotten my facts on the health reform bill from the douments filed and entered into the congressional record of the United States congress. I read the actual words (you know, those typed things that convey ideas) and determine, from that reading, what is and is not contained in those words.

You have gotten your "Death Panel" facts from where?

In the case of the man with the rifle at the event? I got that information from interviews done with the 2 principals involved.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #68
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But I don't hear a lot of people screaming about Constitutional rights infringements in that case.
Probably because they can't find that Constitutional right.


I think you are interpreting Liberty in a very bad way - one that would even strip a citizen to their right to privacy. Terrain denial is not a restriction of personal freedoms. The difference is clear - locking someone up vs. telling them they cannot enter a locked-up area. By your logic, you should not be able to legally prevent me from entering your home because I should have a right to go wherever I please at any time I want.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 12:44 PM   #69
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Probably because they can't find that Constitutional right.


I think you are interpreting Liberty in a very bad way - one that would even strip a citizen to their right to privacy. Terrain denial is not a restriction of personal freedoms. The difference is clear - locking someone up vs. telling them they cannot enter a locked-up area. By your logic, you should not be able to legally prevent me from entering your home because I should have a right to go wherever I please at any time I want.

Ahhh but that is one of those paradoxes. Like the first amendment, you have the right to free speech, but you do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded thater.

We all have certain rights, that apply fully until that right infringes on the rights of others.

Constitutional rights are defined further by law and then even further by case law. That is the way the document and our form of government was meant to be used.

I brought up the word Liberty because it was used in case law to determine the right to travel freely within the United States.

The google search I did was for : constitutional restriction of travel
I disregarded and references to Cuban travel and poked around a bit. Did not feel like plugging up this thread with dozens of quates and cases, but there is the seach that brought me to my conclusions.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 01:35 PM   #70
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Ahhh but that is one of those paradoxes. Like the first amendment, you have the right to free speech, but you do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded thater.

We all have certain rights, that apply fully until that right infringes on the rights of others.
Agreed. Rights have limits, they are called responsibilities, it's not a paradox.

So, rights and responsibilities, OK good.

Your example,
Right: free speech.
Responsibility: don't encite a riot.

My example,
Right: keep and bear arms.
Responsibility: Dont shoot the President.


Again, guns were not allowed to be within proxmity of the president. There WAS a gun free zone, just like your no fly zone example. These people who were armed were on the street OUTSIDE the speaking event. They were lawfully bearing arms. Guns were not allowed into the event.

End of story.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 01:41 PM   #71
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You do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded thater.
Uh, yes you most certainly do. There had better be a fire, though.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 03:10 PM   #72
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Uh, yes you most certainly do. There had better be a fire, though.

Point well taken
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Old August 25th, 2009, 04:11 PM   #73
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One of them you will see ahead of time. The other, you won't.
I was thinking the same thing, then I saw your post
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Old August 25th, 2009, 04:37 PM   #74
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Just so we are all on the same page, this is what you said and what I responded to:











When you get actual "Facts" from the right wing nut jobs, then they will indeed be facts.

When you regurgitate the BS they are putting out there, the out right lies, the assumptions based on a fantasy, well, yes, then you need to get your head out of thier asses.

I don't care where your facts come from, just make sure they are facts.

Even the spins and twists have some basis in reality.

Now, please remind me what "normal people" I have gotten my facts from lately, and on what subjects.

I have gotten my facts on the health reform bill from the douments filed and entered into the congressional record of the United States congress. I read the actual words (you know, those typed things that convey ideas) and determine, from that reading, what is and is not contained in those words.

You have gotten your "Death Panel" facts from where?

In the case of the man with the rifle at the event? I got that information from interviews done with the 2 principals involved.
Ok lets get this straight, the info I get is from the right, and they are facts from credible sources and you may think and say they are nut jobs.
I also figure that you get your facts from the nut jobs on the left. Oh and before I forget your nut jobs are lieing to you and you can't see it.
The reason you think that I am listening to lies is because the news I listen to is far and balenced, right leaning news and media, as you do not listen to this type of media so anything I say is a lie to you because you did not hear it from the left wing biased media outlet that you seem to be connected to by the hip. Try listening to all the news not just what fits your mold.
Have you listen to the radio station I told you about? 103.5fm noon to 1 o'clock 5 days a week. Educate yourself and listen to what you are not being told by the mainstream media. There are two sides to every story, try to hear what the other side has to say, then make your judgement call after you hear the truth. Just maybe the lights will come on
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Old August 25th, 2009, 05:22 PM   #75
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And how would you determine the difference?
By the amount of rounds fired.....
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Old August 25th, 2009, 05:48 PM   #76
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Old August 26th, 2009, 01:19 AM   #77
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Ok lets get this straight, the info I get is from the right, and they are facts from credible sources and you may think and say they are nut jobs.
I also figure that you get your facts from the nut jobs on the left. Oh and before I forget your nut jobs are lieing to you and you can't see it.
The reason you think that I am listening to lies is because the news I listen to is far and balenced, right leaning news and media, as you do not listen to this type of media so anything I say is a lie to you because you did not hear it from the left wing biased media outlet that you seem to be connected to by the hip. Try listening to all the news not just what fits your mold.
Have you listen to the radio station I told you about? 103.5fm noon to 1 o'clock 5 days a week. Educate yourself and listen to what you are not being told by the mainstream media. There are two sides to every story, try to hear what the other side has to say, then make your judgement call after you hear the truth. Just maybe the lights will come on

I will give as short of an answer I can to the frustrating arguments people have with PeteC's replies to the current discussions going on with health care.

Pete ALWAYS goes right to the "show me where it says that in the bill because I have read the whole thing" and of course you/we can't. Only because the exact verbage is not in the bill.

Anyone that is not blinded by this fantasy-cure-all-happyland-bullshit can see the true cause and effect of what this bill posses to the country.

No, it does not say "death panel" in the bill. But that is what is VERY likely to happen, in one form or another. etc.....

There is no way in hell a "public option" will save us all money on health care.
The only government intervention that can do much good is tort reform. And this simple step is not an option because trial lawyers hold to much power and Obama doesn't really give a damn about true solutions.

Give the "poor" a chance to make more of their lives by creating REAL jobs, not more government jobs.
And how do you do that? Here it comes, hold on to your hat Pete, tax cuts. Yes I said it.

Get the government out of the way and let the true capitalists work.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:17 AM   #78
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Ok lets get this straight, the info I get is from the right, and they are facts from credible sources and you may think and say they are nut jobs.
I also figure that you get your facts from the nut jobs on the left. Oh and before I forget your nut jobs are lieing to you and you can't see it.
The reason you think that I am listening to lies is because the news I listen to is far and balenced, right leaning news and media, as you do not listen to this type of media so anything I say is a lie to you because you did not hear it from the left wing biased media outlet that you seem to be connected to by the hip. Try listening to all the news not just what fits your mold.
Have you listen to the radio station I told you about? 103.5fm noon to 1 o'clock 5 days a week. Educate yourself and listen to what you are not being told by the mainstream media. There are two sides to every story, try to hear what the other side has to say, then make your judgement call after you hear the truth. Just maybe the lights will come on
Here is your problem, you keep assuming I get all of my news and facts from news media, especially the left. This is where you are wrong.

I look at news sources from both sides, beleive it or not.

But when I am looking for the real facts, I go to the real source.

Please answer this, where do you get your information on the health care reform bill, especially the parts about "Death Panels".

I read the bill, that is where I got my information. I posted a lengthy post a while ago listing what I found in the bill to refute a litany of falsehoods being propogated on the web. Every rebuttal I typed came from the bill itself, not a news source, not the right wing or left wing. From the bill, as unbiased a source as you can find. Of course, you have mentioned that a claim you made must have been removed from the bill after you claimed to have seen it.

Where did you get your information about the CARS website taking over your computer? I saw the Glenn Beck report. I also visited the site myself. I did not get my information from a left or right news source, I went to the site, before and after the report from Beck.

But, I guess you will never believe me that I research beyong what the news tells me. Because I do not agree with you I must be getting my "facts" from the left wing media. I guess there really is no arguning with you. You refuse to follow the links I post to the real information, or you chose to simply not believe what you read there.
I have tried to present the fact, with references to more than just news stories or blogs. I will continue to do so. I only ask that you peruse the documents that are part of the permanent congressional record when it pertains to our discussions. Let us all find the real facts and discuss them.

See, I don't care if you agree with me or not. I don't care if we believe in the same thing or not. I just hope that we are both arguing our opinions based on factual research, and real information.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:27 AM   #79
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I will give as short of an answer I can to the frustrating arguments people have with PeteC's replies to the current discussions going on with health care.

Pete ALWAYS goes right to the "show me where it says that in the bill because I have read the whole thing" and of course you/we can't. Only because the exact verbage is not in the bill.

Anyone that is not blinded by this fantasy-cure-all-happyland-bullshit can see the true cause and effect of what this bill posses to the country.

No, it does not say "death panel" in the bill. But that is what is VERY likely to happen, in one form or another. etc.....

There is no way in hell a "public option" will save us all money on health care.
The only government intervention that can do much good is tort reform. And this simple step is not an option because trial lawyers hold to much power and Obama doesn't really give a damn about true solutions.

Give the "poor" a chance to make more of their lives by creating REAL jobs, not more government jobs.
And how do you do that? Here it comes, hold on to your hat Pete, tax cuts. Yes I said it.

Get the government out of the way and let the true capitalists work.

"very likely to happen" is something we hear a lot. And you have a good point. There are some things that will happen that somebody will not be happy about. I have never argued that. But, you have to admit, these are assumptions. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, Stan, I never said I read the whole bill. What I have done is looked at the talking points of those opposed to the bill and researched those pages and, when needed, those sections of the bill to see if those talking points were valid.

I have no problem with tax cuts, trust me. I just have not seen that help me much in the past decade. We had spend and cut, now we have spend and tax. Either way the deficit went up. It is a vicious cycle we have been through before.
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Old August 26th, 2009, 09:30 AM   #80
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Here is your problem, you keep assuming I get all of my news and facts from news media, especially the left. This is where you are wrong.

I look at news sources from both sides, beleive it or not.

But when I am looking for the real facts, I go to the real source.

Please answer this, where do you get your information on the health care reform bill, especially the parts about "Death Panels".

I read the bill, that is where I got my information. I posted a lengthy post a while ago listing what I found in the bill to refute a litany of falsehoods being propogated on the web. Every rebuttal I typed came from the bill itself, not a news source, not the right wing or left wing. From the bill, as unbiased a source as you can find. Of course, you have mentioned that a claim you made must have been removed from the bill after you claimed to have seen it.

Where did you get your information about the CARS website taking over your computer? I saw the Glenn Beck report. I also visited the site myself. I did not get my information from a left or right news source, I went to the site, before and after the report from Beck.

But, I guess you will never believe me that I research beyong what the news tells me. Because I do not agree with you I must be getting my "facts" from the left wing media. I guess there really is no arguning with you. You refuse to follow the links I post to the real information, or you chose to simply not believe what you read there.
I have tried to present the fact, with references to more than just news stories or blogs. I will continue to do so. I only ask that you peruse the documents that are part of the permanent congressional record when it pertains to our discussions. Let us all find the real facts and discuss them.

See, I don't care if you agree with me or not. I don't care if we believe in the same thing or not. I just hope that we are both arguing our opinions based on factual research, and real information.
How can you consider any sources you find on the web to be gospel? Can you acknowledge that the left is being very deceptive about the bill, I mean, if they have the best interest of everybody at heart it should be fairly easy for them to explain it, and gain support. It is a power grab. If you're looking for a "credible source" you could be sitting in the fucking oval office and not have one, because they don't even know what they're doing. They had to adjust their deficit projection by what, 2 trillion dollars? Oh well, it's only 2
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