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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:36 AM   #121
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I don't get it.. two guys wanting to get married, two woman wanting to get married, come on now can't you see there is something wrong with this picture. They can't have kids together, it is all bout sex thats it. and the strange thing about it is that they think its normal.
Tell me Mike, do you feel as they do? Could you or would you, have a man in your life as a woman? Can you grasp that? your answer is no. Homosexuality is not for our children and should not be taught to our children. It tears apart the fabric of the family unit, you know man and woman= kids.
You know you can be a bigot and not be a Christian
Well first of all, and I think I speak for most guys here, two women having sex together is pretty hot.

But seriously, how has homosexuality torn apart the fabric of YOUR family unit? Please tell me what heterosexual family HAS had the fabric of their family unit torn apart by homosexuality.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:37 AM   #122
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The letter spawning his writing of that letter?



http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/dba_jefferson.html

I want to know what happened to that thinking.

It sounds like they weren't worried about the church overtaking the Government but they didn't like the idea that the Government provided them the religous rights instead of them being from God. LIke I've said before the seperation was for the Church, not the State. It's used in the exact opposite way it's supposed to have been.
Good post. It proves that there was without doubt much debate on the issue, however the final decision was to keep government a thing by and for the people without religion, and allow religions to be by and for their followers.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #123
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I don't think gay couples wanting to be together legally is so bad. I have no problem with them getting tax breaks or insurance benefits because of their legal status. I do have a problem with the term "marrage" being used to describe their union. I feel that marrage is between a man and a woman and it should stay that way.
Among Merriam Websters examples of the definitions of "marriage" is: "an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry J. T. Shawcross>'".... Do you object to that?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #124
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Well first of all, and I think I speak for most guys here, two women having sex together is pretty hot.

But seriously, how has homosexuality torn apart the fabric of YOUR family unit? Please tell me what heterosexual family HAS had the fabric of their family unit torn apart by homosexuality.
I already asked him that. Maybe he has a son who came out to him about being gay. Aber then has to shut and hate his son because he's a bigot. Aber's son no longer comes to see his dad. Thus his family was torn apart.

Or maybe, his dad was gay, but married his mother because he had to go with the flow, that's what they had to do back then. He finally couldn't handle it anymore, announced he was gay to the rest of the family and left Aber and his mother alone while he moved into his boyfriends new condo.

Those are two examples that could tear a family apart, i suppose, but they wouldn't happen if people would just accept other people for who they are and deal with it.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:48 AM   #125
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I think you may be the only person in this thread that is getting my point.
I thought I was providing relevant support as well...?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:52 AM   #126
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I understand that you find them both objectionable, but you must admit there is a huge difference (and there is in our legal code) between the two. One is two consenting adults doing something in the privacy of their own home and the other is FUCKING A CHILD. If you don't see the difference, you are just as fucked up as a child molester.
Would you be talking about the child that you think should be allowed to get an abortion with out the parents consent or knowledge, or get birth control in school, or tested for STDs without telling their parents.
It really dosen't matter because you are exhibiting biggotry based on your personal feelings.
Would your position change if the supreme court ruled that F**king a kid is O.K.??????
Well thats what happen with abortion.
You O.K. with the beastiality thing.
How about necrophilia, not sure if i spelled that right, thats F**king a corpse.
I guess it's O.K. if the its a corpse of an adult, right.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 09:54 AM   #127
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human sexuality is obviously complex. whenever people attempt to differentiate between sexual activity for procreation vs. recreation one heads down a slippery slope of various deviations.

there are video/picture/chat sites for virtually any and every bizarre fetish/deviation/perversion - and yes, to some of us man on man, woman on woman, is akin to all the other more extreme and obviously objectionable adult+child, and bestiality.

just because some weird fetishes and perversions may not harm an innocent, it does not make it any less weird, or objectionable when outside the norm as far as some of us are concerned.

from shoe fetish, foot fetish, belly button fetish, s&m, masochism, rubber clothing, scat, urine, femdom, hairy, furries, manga, hentai, bukkake, eels, donkey shows, to r osie odonnel - some of us honestly view it all as equally disturbing...

where is the line if you don't see the line where we do? you used the phrase consenting adult...

what exactly is that? especially since not even every state in the union has a uniform age of consent. should consent be codified in a legal agreement, or is a "take me now or lose me forever" statement sufficient? (had to quote Top Gun)
"They say there are strangers who threaten us.
Our immigrants and infidels.
They say there is strangeness too dangerous
in our theaters and bookstore shelves.
Those who know what's best for us
must rise and save us from ourselves."

"Quick to judge,
quick to anger,
slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand."

Rush
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Old August 19th, 2009, 10:00 AM   #128
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I already asked him that. Maybe he has a son who came out to him about being gay. Aber then has to shut and hate his son because he's a bigot. Aber's son no longer comes to see his dad. Thus his family was torn apart.

Or maybe, his dad was gay, but married his mother because he had to go with the flow, that's what they had to do back then. He finally couldn't handle it anymore, announced he was gay to the rest of the family and left Aber and his mother alone while he moved into his boyfriends new condo.

Those are two examples that could tear a family apart, i suppose, but they wouldn't happen if people would just accept other people for who they are and deal with it.


Or maybe he thought about it before and has hated himself for it ever since, and blames the gays for his self-hatred.

Or possibly he is thinking about it all the time and getting so upset about his desire to have some man meat in his pooter that he is acting hateful toward that so no one will suspect.

Maybe he is really uncomfortable taking a shower in a locker room with an open shower design.

Maybe he avoids certain clothes, cars, whatever because he thinks it might make him look 'gay'.





















BTW, I'm just kidding, so don't freak.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 12:01 PM   #129
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I understand that you find them both objectionable, but you must admit there is a huge difference (and there is in our legal code) between the two. One is two consenting adults doing something in the privacy of their own home and the other is FUCKING A CHILD. If you don't see the difference, you are just as fucked up as a child molester.

I can see the difference for sure. I was merely trying to ask were the line is? Pedifiles probably think they were born that way. They can't help it. Now replace Pedifiles with Homosexuals. You basically have the line most homosexuals use to explain why they are the way they are.

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Good post. It proves that there was without doubt much debate on the issue, however the final decision was to keep government a thing by and for the people without religion, and allow religions to be by and for their followers.
With out a doubt it was a struggle.

I also wonder sometimes about this line. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

I've braught this up before. Some believe that "Creator" could mean anything. But, in order to create there must be some form of intellegence. So did that mean that the Writers of the Declaration of indepenence think it best for every man to believe in, at least, a creator?
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Among Merriam Websters examples of the definitions of "marriage" is: "an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry J. T. Shawcross>'".... Do you object to that?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 12:06 PM   #130
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I don't know how to embed multiple quotes in to one post. If you could enlighten me I would be happy to.

see the button labeled "multi" on the lower right? click that for all the posts you want to quote then hit "reply"

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I thought I was providing relevant support as well...?
Yes, you and PeteC also. Thanks for your support.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #131
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I can see the difference for sure. I was merely trying to ask were the line is? Pedifiles probably think they were born that way. They can't help it. Now replace Pedifiles with Homosexuals. You basically have the line most homosexuals use to explain why they are the way they are.



With out a doubt it was a struggle.

I also wonder sometimes about this line. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

I've braught this up before. Some believe that "Creator" could mean anything. But, in order to create there must be some form of intellegence. So did that mean that the Writers of the Declaration of indepenence think it best for every man to believe in, at least, a creator?
It's clear to me that it states that THEY believed in a creator, but it's equally clear that they decided in the end to leave the creator out of the affairs of man.

As I keep saying, these values you keep calling Christian aren't exclusive to Christianity, so let's just agree that Buddhists, Hindu, etc. pretty much have the same value set, just maybe disagree on things like creation, afterlife, etc. But the main rules of life remain pretty much constant across the religions. If you can't agree on that then you probably know little about them, and I can help you there if you like.

Next, Christianity is a relatively new religion in the grand scheme of things. One of your most articulate and well researched allies on this site, RyBread, can attest to that.There were other societies with other belief systems around (and some are still in practice today) long before Christianity that had the same 'rules of the road' for human relations, so to assert any claim to the inception of such values is arrogant and wrong.

This is in no way intended as an argument against the existence of your god. Only against the claim that good values were invented and held only by christians.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #132
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I can see the difference for sure. I was merely trying to ask were the line is? Pedifiles probably think they were born that way. They can't help it. Now replace Pedifiles with Homosexuals. You basically have the line most homosexuals use to explain why they are the way they are.
Weak argument at best. Same could be said for left handed people, athletic people, those with talent, murderers, etc.

Realistic people do not equate gays with pedophiles. What you are doing is trying to relate to the lowest common denominator in the thinking of the masses in order to turn those masses against a law abiding segment of our society.



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With out a doubt it was a struggle.

I also wonder sometimes about this line. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

I've braught this up before. Some believe that "Creator" could mean anything. But, in order to create there must be some form of intellegence. So did that mean that the Writers of the Declaration of indepenence think it best for every man to believe in, at least, a creator?

Creator may have intentionally been left as a very vague term.

I believe my parents created me, so in doing so with the help of Mother nature in her infinite powers, I am endowed with certain unalienable rights.

What I find funny when people use that line to argue about Christian values ias how the countries values have changed so much since that line was written. At the time of writing, not all men were created equal in the eyes of that very document. You were equal if you we a man, a free man, a white man, a property owning free white man. Everyone else had less, if any rights under that document.

So, to use that line and say that "creator" meant some kind of Christian god, while subjugating many is, IMO, hypocritical at best.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:11 PM   #133
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Weak argument at best. Same could be said for left handed people, athletic people, those with talent, murderers, etc.

Realistic people do not equate gays with pedophiles. What you are doing is trying to relate to the lowest common denominator in the thinking of the masses in order to turn those masses against a law abiding segment of our society.






Creator may have intentionally been left as a very vague term.

I believe my parents created me, so in doing so with the help of Mother nature in her infinite powers, I am endowed with certain unalienable rights.

What I find funny when people use that line to argue about Christian values ias how the countries values have changed so much since that line was written. At the time of writing, not all men were created equal in the eyes of that very document. You were equal if you we a man, a free man, a white man, a property owning free white man. Everyone else had less, if any rights under that document.

So, to use that line and say that "creator" meant some kind of Christian god, while subjugating many is, IMO, hypocritical at best.
Wow... Fukc Pete, you rock.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #134
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I can see the difference for sure. I was merely trying to ask were the line is? Pedifiles probably think they were born that way. They can't help it. Now replace Pedifiles with Homosexuals. You basically have the line most homosexuals use to explain why they are the way they are.
Well, for me the line is where there is consent. Consent can't be given by a child, legally. This is something I don't understand about Conservative Christians. They talk about personal freedoms and rights, but can't wait to tell people what they can and can't do. Yes for me, I think consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with each other as long as they do not harm anyone else. I don't think this applies to pedophiles and children. Their actions harm the children. I'm sure they are born that way, but their actions harm others, which is where their rights end. A homosexual's actions do no harm to anyone.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:43 PM   #135
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I honestly don't like most gay people that I meet. That does not mean that I want to stop them from life as they choose it. I just feel that if they love each other and are not a burdon on society, then let them be together (legally).

As far as exposure to kids.....I need to judge that on a case by case basis. My kids often visit an adult foster care run by a gay man. This guy us pretty down to earth and I feel he poses no threat to my kids. Now flamers are another story. I can't stand those Nancy boy bitches and I don't want my kids to be around them.
There are the ones that are confused and stick to themselves, but the ones that you say flamers, yup keep the kids away.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:44 PM   #136
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Well, for me the line is where there is consent. Consent can't be given by a child, legally. This is something I don't understand about Conservative Christians. They talk about personal freedoms and rights, but can't wait to tell people what they can and can't do. Yes for me, I think consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with each other as long as they do not harm anyone else. I don't think this applies to pedophiles and children. Their actions harm the children. I'm sure they are born that way, but their actions harm others, which is where their rights end. A homosexual's actions do no harm to anyone.

You think that somebody who is doing heroin is harming anyone else, or how about the new thing, cutting yourself, consenting adults should not be interfeared with on this issue, RIGHT, it's not hurting anyone else....
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:46 PM   #137
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Well, for me the line is where there is consent. Consent can't be given by a child, legally. This is something I don't understand about Conservative Christians. They talk about personal freedoms and rights, but can't wait to tell people what they can and can't do. Yes for me, I think consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with each other as long as they do not harm anyone else. I don't think this applies to pedophiles and children. Their actions harm the children. I'm sure they are born that way, but their actions harm others, which is where their rights end. A homosexual's actions do no harm to anyone.
Oh I almost forgot, when are you a consenting adult ????????
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:51 PM   #138
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This doesn't prove nor disprove the existence of your god at all. I don't know how you invented that logic (maybe the same way man invented the existence in the first plac).

The founding fathers did believe in a god. So what? They made it a point to ensure that people had the freedom to believe whatever they want. Your god is not mentioned anywhere in the constitution, so there is no direct link to the founding principals of this country and you god. If you have a link to an document upon which our country is founded that specifically states that the United States is based on your religion, I would like to see it.
Do a search on the personal diary note of all founding fathers and former presidents and they do mention God and how He played a huge role in the building of this country.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 04:00 PM   #139
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Okay, here we go again. How are these principals exclusively christian? I am not a christian but I have the same values. That's what Humanism is all about. Same with Buddhism, and Hinduism, etc. Why do christians think they have a monopoly on good morals?

So if we have a day of christian prayer, that's fine, but if we're going to use the taxpayers facility to house the service then I think it only fair to provid the same service to all other religions that want it. Give them their day too.

The places where you see these things "all around us" became so long after the country was founded and ratified.
You said it, "you are not a Christian" I could try and explain it to you all day long and you still would not get it. Obviously your god is not my God. My God is the One and Only. He is the First and the Last. He is the Alpha and He is the Omega. He is my God.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 04:07 PM   #140
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[QUOTE=PeteC;1815402]Weak argument at best. Same could be said for left handed people, athletic people, those with talent, murderers, etc.

Realistic people do not equate gays with pedophiles. What you are doing is trying to relate to the lowest common denominator in the thinking of the masses in order to turn those masses against a law abiding segment of our society.

What? You have to be kidding, he made a specifc connection, that being sexual preference, you can't get much more specific and connecting then that.
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