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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
You see Bruce, you used that bible quote to support a pre-existing idea in your head and one that is pushed by CERTAIN Christians. If you look hard enough, you can find quotes that support almost any idea.

Plus, you're talking about the wrong Jesus, the Conservative Christians worship Supply Side Jesus.

YouTube - Al Franken\\\\\\\\\\'s SUPPLY SIDE JESUS: An animated comic strip.

they also listen to John Hagee:

YouTube - Clips From Hagee\\\\\\\\\\'s Sermons - Scary Stuff
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:40 PM   #42
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This country is in the toilet because (in part) of abuse of assistance programs. I am all about feeding a hungry man (or anybody for that matter) who is down on his luck and just needs a boost to get back on his feet. I do not, however, feel that it is my reponsibility to feed a hungry man (or woman) who sits on their ass and makes excuses as to why they are in the position they are. I have witness many thousands of examples of assistance abuse with the welfare system, workman's comp, unemployment, to name a few.

I think what this country really needs is a shift in work and personal ethics. Instead of a large percentage of Americans feeling they are entitled to something for nothing, we need to develope a sense of responsiblity for our own actions and a willingness to work harder (or smarter) instead of looking for handouts when the chips are down.
So you believe the poor people, even if they abused welfare to the max, are the cause of this global economic crisis? What about the corporate greed that DWARFS the spending on public benefits? What about the $2 trillion dollars GW Bush spent on Iraq? Even the loans that should never have been made were made by people that KNEWthe borrower couldn't pay them back, but did it out of greed because they want their commission. No no my friend, the greedy rich elite did this to us far more than the poor. it's just easy to blame the poor because it's simple. In order to blame the rich you have to learn a hell of a lot about how their world works.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #43
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Well I believe that it is up to the church and believers to do this as they do and not up to the government. The governing authorities of the day did not hand out.
NIV Acts 4:32-35 The Believers Share Thier Possessions

All the believers were one at heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.33With great power the apostles contiued to testifiy to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all.34There were no needy persons among them. From time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Wow... Sounds awfully socialist. Especially the first sentence.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:44 PM   #44
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When the government takes its not charity or compassion. Plus what right do you or anyone else have to tell me who I give time or money to. As not all charitable donations are given in cash or money forms, one can donate time. In the past I have spent time making toys for children's hospital (Chicago), Give Kids the World in Fla. Along with cash donations when I could. As of late I have raised money for St. Judes, and donated time to C.H.U.M. in Dansville MI helping with the mentally disabled. The difference is these are organizations that I want to give time/money to for reason of my own heart not yours. It is not the governments place to come in and take from me to give to another no matter how good the cause. As I may have other cause that are just as deserving, I may want to donate to that would then be with less funding.
I see your point, but for some of us we don't see it as taking, we see it as sharing and giving back. Same ultimate action, but different viewpoints of it.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:52 PM   #45
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Couldnt you have combined those 4 posts into one? This thread is about christian values in goverment. In my opinion church and state should be as far apart as possible. Because making decisions based on religious beliefs removes analsys and replaces it with closed mindedness.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:57 PM   #46
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Wow... Sounds awfully socialist. Especially the first sentence.
No, not really. The thing your missing is that they did this out of care for each other. Socialist is a government forcing the people to do give thier money up. It also is taking away basic freedoms of our nation.

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I see your point, but for some of us we don't see it as taking, we see it as sharing and giving back. Same ultimate action, but different viewpoints of it.
Same end result but not the same action. at all. Giving and taking are completely different things. You may see it as Sharing and giving back, but most don't. If people thought about givng back, as you have stated you do, do you really think we'd be in the situation we are in? I think not. If you want to share and give back, that's fine, but don't expect the public to share that viewpoint, I can Guarentee they will not. We are a greedy nation that only wants best for themselves.

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Couldnt you have combined those 4 posts into one? This thread is about christian values in goverment. In my opinion church and state should be as far apart as possible. Because making decisions based on religious beliefs removes analsys and replaces it with closed mindedness.
Did you know that the idea of "Seperation of church and state" actually was meant to protect the chuch? It's been blown out of proportion ever since that term was penned by the author. The Original intent for this nation was to be one founded in the ideals of Christian thinking. Of course, the text books don't teach that part because it might offend somebody.

Also, if one keeps thier mind two open, thier brain will fall out. Sterotypes really don't do justice most of the time.

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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:03 PM   #47
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For starters it is not up to the government to take care of people, Republican or Democrat and you call the Christian ummm.
The Bush admin had held the national day of pray at the white house every year, until Obama got in and guess what? He did not hold to the same Christian values that the previous admin had held onto, Obama had did exactly what the clinton admin did, not hold the national day of prayer at the white house. Does that tell you something about , they are there to help themselves and thats it. The programs that they say help people only keep them dependent on the government. It's like the saying, feed a man a meal, he'll come back for more, teach him to fish, he'll feed himself for life.

And the only reason they were struck dead was that they were not honest with the Lord, if they said we have, x amount of dollars and we will give this much and keep this much for ourselves. See they lied and God knows your heart, you can't fool Him.
If you knew God and his word you would have known that and you would be on my side on this topic, but I relize you do not and it is not your fault, it is said that you will not understand the words of God unless you are born again. You can read all you want and you can think you are interrpeting the bible correctly but you are mistaken, ask any Christian and he will help you with your struggle
Right, but it was a Christian day of prayer, and excluded other religions. It was discriminatory. Obama wants to include everyone, which is why he's still letting the Repblicans have input on the health care bill.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #48
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Did you know that the idea of "Seperation of church and state" actually was meant to protect the chuch? It's been blown out of proportion ever since that term was penned by the author. The Original intent for this nation was to be one founded in the ideals of Christian thinking. Of course, the text books don't teach that part because it might offend somebody.
Source please.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #49
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Couldnt you have combined those 4 posts into one? This thread is about christian values in goverment. In my opinion church and state should be as far apart as possible. Because making decisions based on religious beliefs removes analsys and replaces it with closed mindedness.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #50
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I see your point, but for some of us we don't see it as taking, we see it as sharing and giving back. Same ultimate action, but different viewpoints of it.
With this post I have lost all respect for you. Share your own stuff, I've had to work too hard for mine.

If you just come out and say you believe in Socialism it would save alot of us time.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 04:12 PM   #51
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Source please.

This is from a previous thread. I do'nt have the time to find all the sources agian. I think I may have linked a few back then.

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I did know! I also know the original intent for our country was to be a Country set up to mimick the Systems that God has put into place. Many of the founding Fathers believed that with out Religion AND Morals you could not have Freedom.



Quote:
"Statesmen, My Dear sir, may plan and spculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which freedom can Securely stand"

(John Adams, "letter to Zabdiel adams, Philadelphia, 21 June 1776," The works of John Adams - Second President of the United States, ed.)

Interesting Website


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"The Only foundation for....a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican Governents"

- Benjamin Rush (Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical)


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"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...Reason and expierience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of Religious Principle"

- George Washington (The will of the people: Readings in American Democracy)


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Religion and Good morals are the only solid Foundations of public liberty and happiness

-Samuel Adams


Up intill the late 1800 children were taught from a book called "the New England premier". This book taught Exclusively Christian Morals and Lessons. The Way the children Learned the alphabet was through Stories in the bible. A = In Adams fall....
Most Ivy Leage Schools's first Mottos Were exclusively to educate and firther the kingdom of God through the Christian Church.

Harvards Original Motto

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Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae (Truth For Christ and the Church)

Harvards Rules and Precepts - 1636

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Let ever student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3) and therefore lay Chrsit at the bottom as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning

Princetons founding statement 1746

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Cursed is all learning that is contrary to the Cross of Christ

I've just started this Quest for knowledge on this subject. It Frustrates me to know end that we were not taught these kinds of things in School. At Least I wasn't. This is the TRUE history of our nation, weather it's politically correct or not, we should be taught what is the truth and not what has been manipluated by The now Twisted Educational system. At the same time I'm not surprised though. We live in a Country that is falling fast and it's because the System that was put into place by the founding fathers has been cripled by "Seperation of Church and state". Our Governmental System was maid to have God's Precepts as a moral compass to guide it. We no longer have that Compass and it's going down fast. I can only imagen what would have happened if we would have stayed true to our countries foundings and still used God as our compass. Our country would be 30 times more amazing that it already has been.


From the sounds of it "Seperation of Church and state" was meant for something else. Maybe they didn't want the same situation they had in England with the Catholic Church. The Church was not to Run the state, but that does not mean that the state can't use God as a Higher moral Compass. Most of the founding fathers regognized that. I just wish they would now

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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:22 PM   #52
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Right, but it was a Christian day of prayer, and excluded other religions. It was discriminatory. Obama wants to include everyone, which is why he's still letting the Repblicans have input on the health care bill.
It was and is a Christian day of prayer, other religions, just that they do not believe as Christains do so no place for them. They have thier time to pray to themselves, but as a nation founded under christain values and princilples that is why. It says that in our courts on the walls, in our constitution, on our money it is all around us. No where does it say peace be to allah, they can do that in dearborn. I believe that a survey was done and about 80 % of americans call themselves christian.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:22 PM   #53
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Right, but it was a Christian day of prayer, and excluded other religions. It was discriminatory. Obama wants to include everyone, which is why he's still letting the Repblicans have input on the health care bill.
Do you Huff Paint before you log on????
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:25 PM   #54
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ok LC4X and Aber61, since you're doing the "...founded on Christian values" thing again, so soon you forget what this thread is about...shouldn't we be going ahead with providing healthcare to the poor? The government is of the people, shouldn't the people be helping the people?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #55
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ok LC4X and Aber61, since you're doing the "...founded on Christian values" thing again, so soon you forget what this thread is about...shouldn't we be going ahead with providing healthcare to the poor? The government is of the people, shouldn't the people be helping the people?
Thanks Mike. I was thinking the same thing.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:49 PM   #56
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ok LC4X and Aber61, since you're doing the "...founded on Christian values" thing again, so soon you forget what this thread is about...shouldn't we be going ahead with providing healthcare to the poor? NO The government is of the people, shouldn't the people be helping the people? Yes
The people should help the people not the government.....the help starts at your house, quit with the complacent apethetic dependant bullshit and go out and work. Work your friggin ass off for what you want and quit trying to put the burden on someone else.
To many people won't take a job that they feel is below them. They deserve NOTHING.
Not from other people and not from the government.
If your not going to give 100% you deserve NOTHING.

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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:32 PM   #57
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ok LC4X and Aber61, since you're doing the "...founded on Christian values" thing again, so soon you forget what this thread is about...shouldn't we be going ahead with providing healthcare to the poor? The government is of the people, shouldn't the people be helping the people?
OK, here's the funny part. YOU are telling us to stay on topic. Hilarious. I haven't really gone off topic at all yet. If I have, it wasn't by my doing, I was explaining myself to another person. I've also gave some (as far as I can tell) pretty good answers to the question.

Cliff notes = Our Government was founded on CHristian structures, That stopped at "Seperation of Church and State" which was a missused idea and now is blown way out of proportion, The government is now falling apart because of it's inability to function because of it's lack of the God that was supposed to be center to it. Now, let me be clear in saying that the Government was not run by the Church. It was Centered on God and his Decrees but run by it's public. Also notice the past tense I've used, It no longer is.

It is our job to take care of people. No matter what faith/lack there of, we are all guilty, in some form or another, for the shape of our country.

Oh, throw in there the use of Christian Apoligetics to explain the verses quoted and thier meaning and contexts.

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Thanks Mike. I was thinking the same thing.
What exactly did you want for an answer?

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The people should help the people not the government.....the help starts at your house, quit with the complacent apethetic dependant bullshit and go out and work. Work your friggin ass off for what you want and quit trying to put the burden on someone else.
To many people won't take a job that they feel is below them. They deserve NOTHING.
Not from other people and not from the government.
If your not going to give 100% you deserve NOTHING.
Amen.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:37 PM   #58
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Wow... Sounds awfully socialist. Especially the first sentence.
You must have miss read the quote, I thought that socialist was when the government did it or supplied the program to help, what I said was that the people need to step up.
Re read my quote and get back to me
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:53 PM   #59
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ok LC4X and Aber61, since you're doing the "...founded on Christian values" thing again, so soon you forget what this thread is about...shouldn't we be going ahead with providing healthcare to the poor? The government is of the people, shouldn't the people be helping the people?
Actually I am only bringing my comments to the table, somebody else started this thread.
This thread was about Christain values.
Have you ever heard of Mott Children's Hospital?
A friend of mine, he is the grandson of the founder of the Mott Hospital, they are Christian folks and donated millions of dollars to build the hospital and donate millions every year to the hospital for programs to keep the best care available for the sickest of kids that would not have the opportunity to live a life as full as can be expected with the illnesses that they are dealing with.
No government help.
So your question is... people helping people, I see it here. How about Grace Center of Hope in Pontiac again no government help. They help homeless, women and children, get them on thier feet help them with educating them helping them get jobs, Poeple helping peolpe again no government help.
You see if the government got involved they would only put restrictions on things and make it very costly on tax payers and to top it off they would mess it up.
Tell me Mike what are you doing about helping the less fortunate? I do not expect an answer from you on that question, nor do I want one but food for thought for you, thats all
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:56 PM   #60
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Wow... Sounds awfully socialist. Especially the first sentence.
Naw, theres nothing in there about forcing the people to give, or taking more from one than another, or carrying dead weight that dosen't want to work, or having a weak ass leader with no balls(Obama in case you were'nt sure).
It's nothing like socialism.....
Obama is a suck ass loser just like his pea brain supporters.....
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