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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:21 PM   #21
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Did you hear the one about the dyslexic Athiest? He didn't believe in Dog.
Did you hear the one about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

He was up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:23 AM   #22
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Did you hear the one about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

He was up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
The only thing that I can say to this, as I have been on the same quest, is also found on the side of a bus.

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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:32 AM   #23
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This thread confuses me. We have an Agnostic posting Bible verses, a Liberal stirring the pot, and a Christian agreeing with me. The end is near.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 06:44 AM   #24
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So if it's not the governments job to take care of the people (a Christian value) why is it the governments job to impose other Christian values?

I thought The Bible was supposed to be for all people. I didn't know it was some code only able to be understood by those who were "born again". BTW I went to church just about every Sunday for the first 18 or so years of my life. Baptized and everything. I now consider myself, for the most part, an agnostic.
This has never been the Requirement to be able to call yourself a Christian.
The Bible teaches, the only way to God is through his Son Jesus Christ.
I do applaud you for reading the Bible, and actually trying to understand what it means.
I only hope that your questions can be answered so that you can see what several others on this board, and myself has witnessed.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 07:09 AM   #25
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Did you hear the one about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?

He was up all night trying to figure out if there was a dog.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:32 AM   #26
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It's been said here several times that our country was built on Christian values.

Isn't compassion and concern for your fellow man a Christian Value? Isn't that what Jesus is talking about here in Mathew 25: 31-46



So if compassion and concern for your fellow man is a Christian value, commanded by Jesus himself, And the USA is supposed to be a country built on and run on Christian values, how can you then say that it's "unamerican" to have programs that feed the hungry and help the sick?

I don't get it.
The act of Feeding the Homeless and meeting the needs of widows and such is not the job of the Governments. It's the Job of the People. In america the people are "supposed" to be the government. The Lack of needs met for these people is not the Governments fault but our own. We are all Guilty, in one form or another, of being selfish. Unfortunatly our country is getting more and more this way.

It's Unamerican for the Government to Force us to do anything right? Although our Country WAS founded on Christian principles and structures, the moving force behind that has been long gone from the minds of the politicians that run this country. God is no longer the Cornerstone at which our country was founded and the Government that was founded around his principles cannot, and will not, last in the current state it's in. The system was Designed to bring Glory to God through freedom for everyman. Now it's just Freedom for everyman and everybody knows that when everybody is free, no body is.

Please remember that although things are founded on something that doesn't mean they can't get away from that foundation. I think that may be where your Arguement is Flawed. We are no longer a Government under God. We are no longer a Christian Nation.

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This country is in the toilet because (in part) of abuse of assistance programs. I am all about feeding a hungry man (or anybody for that matter) who is down on his luck and just needs a boost to get back on his feet. I do not, however, feel that it is my reponsibility to feed a hungry man (or woman) who sits on their ass and makes excuses as to why they are in the position they are. I have witness many thousands of examples of assistance abuse with the welfare system, workman's comp, unemployment, to name a few.

I think what this country really needs is a shift in work and personal ethics. Instead of a large percentage of Americans feeling they are entitled to something for nothing, we need to develope a sense of responsiblity for our own actions and a willingness to work harder (or smarter) instead of looking for handouts when the chips are down.
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But you say that now we do have a Christian government. So shouldn't it be behaving more Christian like?
We don't have a Christian Government, Anybody can see that. We have a Faded ghost of what used to be a God Centered government. One that has been twisted and bent to the Greed of the people that have the most power.

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OK. So if it's a Christian value that you agree with you want the government to impose it on everyone, but if it is one that could cost you money you want it left to the church. Got it.

God Calls us to give willingly. He would rather us not give if it is by force. As usual the matter is not a action based one but a Heart based one. The Verse that is quoted about one another giving to each other is explaining what a Theistic community would look like. They Gave because the WANTED to meet the needs of their fellow man. They did not do it because someone forced them too. I
[/quote]

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I don't think that Brewmenn is promoting this idea, just trying to call out hypocrisy on the part of conservative christians who say that America was founded on "christian values".
Fixed it for you.

However, there alot of "christians" who aren't living the way they are supposed to. heck, I don't half the time. But, it's easy to pick on the Religous group and not focus on the thousands of non-Christians who also live the same way.

Our country used to be a Comunity based country. You knew all your neighbors and helped them out. (Sounds alot like the verse quoted about comunity) Now it's a country based on Consumerism and what can "I" get.

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More from Jesus:

Mathew 7:1-5



It might interest you that while I was contemplating starting this thread I pulled out my Bible and let it fall open. It fell open to the above verse. I would have never found it otherwise. I figured it was a sign. (true story)
That's a Great bible verse. It's about integrity. If we live our lifes with integrity then we have no plank in our eye. We live our lifes, no matter who's watching, the way we are supposed to; Honoring God through our actions and furthing his Kingdom on this planet.

Oddly enough the verses after that one explain alot of why a Christian should not just give thoughtlessly.

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Matthew 7:7-8
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened
This Verse explains an action for every reward you can get. Ask, Seek, Knock. All require some kind of action. This verse is talking about salvation, but I think it can be parrelled to giving. As many people on this board agree, handouts are stupid. People should have to work, even if it's alittle, for money. They should have to take some form of action in order to get help. Not just sit on thier couch and play Xbox.

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This thread confuses me. We have an Agnostic posting Bible verses, a Liberal stirring the pot, and a Christian agreeing with me. The end is near.

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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:38 AM   #27
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This thread confuses me. We have an Agnostic posting Bible verses, a Liberal stirring the pot, and a Christian agreeing with me. The end is near.
It is true some do see the truth
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:52 AM   #28
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So if it's not the governments job to take care of the people (a Christian value) why is it the governments job to impose other Christian values?

I thought The Bible was supposed to be for all people. I didn't know it was some code only able to be understood by those who were "born again". BTW I went to church just about every Sunday for the first 18 or so years of my life. Baptized and everything. I now consider myself, for the most part, an agnostic.
The bible is for all. and it is not some code, Jesus spoke in parables so that his followers would understand Him. By reading the word of God and becoming born again you learn to understand it. see you can read His word all day long and think you understand but until you ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior you may be left in the dark.
And if you went to church for that many years and did not get it, then it was the fault of your pastor for not teaching you more. See Jesus also said he would send a helper, the Holy Spirit, that small quiet voice you hear, listen to that voice and ask is that You Lord?
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:56 AM   #29
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Posted @ 12:21am
And I still haven't figured it out.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:52 AM   #30
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A Christian Creed on Health Care Reform

http://www.thinkchristian.net/index....om-sojourners/



As one of God’s children, I believe that protecting the health of each human being is a profoundly important personal and communal responsibility for people of faith.

I believe God created each person in the divine image to be spiritually and physically healthy. I feel the pain of sickness and disease in our broken world (Genesis 1:27, Romans 8:22).

I believe life and healing are core tenets of the Christian life. Christ’s ministry included physical healing, and we are called to participate in God’s new creation as instruments of healing and redemption (Matthew 4:23, Luke 9:1-6; Mark 7:32-35, Acts 10:38). Our nation should strive to ensure all people have access to life-giving treatments and care.

I believe, as taught by the Hebrew prophets and Jesus, that the measure of a society is seen in how it treats the most vulnerable. The current discussion about health-care reform is important for the United States to move toward a more just system of providing care to all people (Isaiah 1:16-17, Jeremiah 7:5-7, Matthew 25:31-45).

I believe that all people have a moral obligation to tell the truth. To serve the common good of our entire nation, all parties debating reform should tell the truth and refrain from distorting facts or using fear-based messaging (Leviticus 19:11; Ephesians 4:14-15, 25; Proverbs 6:16-19).

I believe that Christians should seek to bring health and well-being (shalom) to the society into which God has placed us, for a healthy society benefits all members (Jeremiah 29:7).

I believe in a time when all will live long and healthy lives, from infancy to old age (Isaiah 65:20), and “mourning and crying and pain will be no more” (Revelation 21:4). My heart breaks for my brothers and sisters who watch their loved ones suffer, or who suffer themselves, because they cannot afford a trip to the doctor. I stand with them in their suffering.

I believe health-care reform must rest on a foundation of values that affirm each and every life as a sacred gift from the Creator (Genesis 2:7).
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Old August 18th, 2009, 11:55 AM   #31
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Good job Bruce. Once again you bring some very deep questions to the fore front.

Of course, some are so deep seated in thier own beliefs that they can not even see that there is hypocrisy. Sad.

Like Bruce, I spent the first 18 years of my life going to church every week. I was baptized in a church that predates this countries founding. I attended Chatacism and did time as an alter boy.

The reason I no longer go to church and consider myself an Agnostic has nothing to do with my Priests inability to teach me enough. It had to do with my realization of the extent of hypocrisy in today's churches.

Ya know, I have started reading the tenets of Buddhism lately. I really like what I am reading. There are no false idols to bow to.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:07 PM   #32
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Good job Bruce. Once again you bring some very deep questions to the fore front.

Of course, some are so deep seated in thier own beliefs that they can not even see that there is hypocrisy. Sad.

Like Bruce, I spent the first 18 years of my life going to church every week. I was baptized in a church that predates this countries founding. I attended Chatacism and did time as an alter boy.

The reason I no longer go to church and consider myself an Agnostic has nothing to do with my Priests inability to teach me enough. It had to do with my realization of the extent of hypocrisy in today's churches.

Ya know, I have started reading the tenets of Buddhism lately. I really like what I am reading. There are no false idols to bow to.
some of us have transcended the hypocrisy of today's and yesterday's churches, reject it and organized religion, and then looked deeper to attempt to find out how/why Christianity spread as explosively as it did in the very early centuries despite the tremendous persecution - and found a tiny amount of faith deep inside ourselves sufficient to believe.

I was raised primarily methodist, with a touch of presbyterian, spent some time in a baptist church, have attended non-Christian but really did not start looking for my Savior until after a whole series of 'wake-up' calls as I like to call them forced me to look at myself, the decisions I was making.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:13 PM   #33
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some of us have transcended the hypocrisy of today's and yesterday's churches, reject it and organized religion, and then looked deeper to attempt to find out how/why Christianity spread as explosively as it did in the very early centuries despite the tremendous persecution - and found a tiny amount of faith deep inside ourselves sufficient to believe.

I was raised primarily methodist, with a touch of presbyterian, spent some time in a baptist church, have attended non-Christian but really did not start looking for my Savior until after a whole series of 'wake-up' calls as I like to call them forced me to look at myself, the decisions I was making.


I have looked at myself too, very deeply. I have also had quite a few "wake-up" calls that forced me to reassess where my life was and how I wanted to continue it. I am satisfied and happy with the decisions I have made in my life.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:14 PM   #34
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Ya know, I have started reading the tenets of Buddhism lately. I really like what I am reading. There are no false idols to bow to.
So have I.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #35
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Good job Bruce. Once again you bring some very deep questions to the fore front.

Of course, some are so deep seated in thier own beliefs that they can not even see that there is hypocrisy. Sad.

Like Bruce, I spent the first 18 years of my life going to church every week. I was baptized in a church that predates this countries founding. I attended Chatacism and did time as an alter boy.

The reason I no longer go to church and consider myself an Agnostic has nothing to do with my Priests inability to teach me enough. It had to do with my realization of the extent of hypocrisy in today's churches.

Ya know, I have started reading the tenets of Buddhism lately. I really like what I am reading. There are no false idols to bow to.
I agree to an extent that there is so much Hypocrisy in churches. It's really sad. I just don't get why people let what other people do effect what they do

Sure, you have Hypocrites, does that mean you have to be one? Absoultly not. I see the Hypocricy in the churches today but, if anything, I use that as a Reminder not to fall into that complacentcy that so many Christians are today.

It's also easy to be seen as a Hypocrite when the standard you aspire to is higher then you can achieve on your own. What you've explained is what proves even more that we need Christ. What our churches preach and what God expects (those two are not nessicarilly the same) are unobtainable by us with out the help of Christ's Sacrifice. You have witnessed first hand why we need salvation. Perhaps The next step is to except it.

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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:30 PM   #36
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I agree to an extent that there is so much Hypocrisy in churches. It's really sad. I just don't get why people let what other people do effect what they do

Sure, you have Hypocrites, does that mean you have to be one? Absoultly not. I see the Hypocricy in the churches today but, if anything, I use that as a Reminder not to fall into that complacentcy that so many Christians are today.

It's also easy to be seen as a Hypocrite when the standard you aspire to is higher then you can achieve on your own. What you've explained is what proves even more that we need Christ. What our churches preach and what God expects (those two are not nessicarilly the same) are unobtainable by us with out the help of Christ's Sacrifice. You have witnessed first hand why we need salvation. Perhaps The next step is to except it.

I guess I should have expanded a little. I saw the hypocrasy in religion and belief in mystical all powerful beings as well as the churches that taught those beliefs. It is not limited to the Christians, I feel that way about all religions that have gods.

I guess I am damned becasue I let logic take over.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #37
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I guess I should have expanded a little. I saw the hypocrasy in religion and belief in mystical all powerful beings as well as the churches that taught those beliefs. It is not limited to the Christians, I feel that way about all religions that have gods.

I guess I am damned becasue I let logic take over.
No not really. If that's what you've come to as a Desicion that's fine. From a Christian Stand point, yeah, you won't be going to heaven. Also, just because I believe in a "Mystical Power" doesn't mean I don't use logic. You've come to the choice you have by logic and I've come to choice I have because of logic. Belief in a Higher power does not negate using logic.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #38
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Who says I won't get into heaven. Isn't God all forgiving?

So, since I question his existence and choose not to blindly follow, I am going to Hell, or Purgatory? Wow, nice Deity you have there.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:26 PM   #39
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Who says I won't get into heaven. Isn't God all forgiving?

So, since I question his existence and choose not to blindly follow, I am going to Hell, or Purgatory? Wow, nice Deity you have there.
Going to Hell is an interesting concept.

Some have suggested that we are essentially already there at the top most level, if one defines Hell as a separation from God. Some suggest that it is infinitely, exponentially more deeper anguishing type of hell when the moment of enlightenment happens and those that chose to harden themselves and turn their back on God realize what they have separated themselves from.

Make no mistake, I would wager that the vast majority of us who do believe - from time to time, still have moments of doubt. I think it was Brother Mike who was first to mention that Sister Theresa even wrote about her private feelings where she did not feel the powerful connection and sense of peace that some have described.

Unfortunately, it is often the "born again" that are so vociferously shouting out, judging and/or condemning others when they also are not walking a perfect walk. I certainly don't blame anyone for making choices like yours.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 03:30 PM   #40
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Who says I won't get into heaven. Isn't God all forgiving?

So, since I question his existence and choose not to blindly follow, I am going to Hell, or Purgatory? Wow, nice Deity you have there.

It's more like this. People choose to not regognize that God is Standing, Arms wide open, in front of them. Welcoming them to have a Relationship with him and live with him forever. The only requirement is to allow his son to take your place of punishment so that he can wipe away your sin. Sounds like a Horrible guy indeed. Do You know of alot of kings (or even fathers) who would punish thier own son in order to have a relationship with some one else who has wronged him agian and agian? I can't get how sinister this God of mine is. He's Devious.

Instead, we as humans, blindly live our lifes here on earth. Toiling over little things. Trying to make ourselves eternal through meaningless garble. Not deciding to look up and see the awesome embrace of the creator of the universe waiting for us. Not only that, but mocking him, standing there. Trying with our fuetile little minds to question his plan and dening his embrace because of something we can't even begin to understand.

I don't know. To me, we sound like we are the jerks in this one. But I guess that's just my Opinion.
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