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Old August 21st, 2009, 09:22 PM   #181
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You know it won't or it would already have been done....
I searched around and there are free clinics out there supported mostly through donations and doctors donating time.

And you didn't answer the first question. If you can opt-out of having you tax money support health care to the poor, and a pacifist opt-out of having his tax money support the military?
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Old August 21st, 2009, 10:55 PM   #182
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Just another thought to the Original post. What happens if you are a Christian that doesn't support giving things for free. There are many Examples in the bible (and remember we're talking Christian stuff so It can be Referenced) of people getting stuff, but rarely for free. They have to work for it. Farmers back then would often leave extra of thier crops so that the less fortunate could pick it. They had to go out into the field and get it though. I wish I knew the exact Reference, but it's in there someone.....I'll try and find it.
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Old August 21st, 2009, 11:42 PM   #183
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Unfettered capitalism is where it's at and how we got to the place we are at!
Lesser beings are unworthy of the superior form of righteousness that comes with extreme wealth and the entitlement of nobility. An aristocracy simply can not be achieved nor maintained without such.
Suck it up and turn the other cheek and take it like good subservient beings.
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Old August 21st, 2009, 11:46 PM   #184
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Unfettered capitalism is where it's at and how we got to the place we are at!
Lesser beings are unworthy of the superior form of righteousness that comes with extreme wealth and the entitlement of nobility. An aristocracy simply can not be achieved nor maintained without such.
Suck it up and turn the other cheek and take it like good subservient beings.
Wat?
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 02:16 AM   #185
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Unfettered capitalism is where it's at and how we got to the place we are at!
Lesser beings are unworthy of the superior form of righteousness that comes with extreme wealth and the entitlement of nobility. An aristocracy simply can not be achieved nor maintained without such.
Suck it up and turn the other cheek and take it like good subservient beings.
x2!!
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 10:05 AM   #186
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I do free stuff often out of my own charity for people.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 11:02 AM   #187
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I do free stuff often out of my own charity for people.
Was that in response to my post? Because that's Great that you do that. I'm not saying we can't do that. I'm saying that thier viewpoint on it was that they should have to at least work a bit to get "handouts". If the Government could figure out a way to do this thing but make people actually have to work at it (IE Not just sit on the couch) then I think it would work.

However, I still do'nt think they could do that and it shouldn't be the Governments responsibility.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 11:04 AM   #188
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I searched around and there are free clinics out there supported mostly through donations and doctors donating time.

And you didn't answer the first question. If you can opt-out of having you tax money support health care to the poor, and a pacifist opt-out of having his tax money support the military?
1st the military was already in place its not in addition to. 2nd the military consists of the national guard, you know the guys that help out in disasters, and the coast guard, you know the guys that come get you when your out ice fishing, or boating, so to suggest that pacifists don't contiribute because of an isolated instance isn't a viable comparison.

The greenie has no argument as well, because the highway system is in exsistance, and the utilize the highway system via their organic vegtable delivery and deliverys to the tofoo plant.

If the health care bill passes the only thing I get is another tax. No medical savings, Im not changing insurance. No benifit at all, just more expense forced on me.

You also said there are free clinics supported MOSTLY by doctors and donations, so you gave another unclear vauge answer. Are they supported soley by voluntary contributions, yes, or no.
If they are why do we keep hearing about unaffordable health care, and why do people keep posting things that say you CANT get medical attention.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 11:31 AM   #189
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1st the military was already in place its not in addition to. 2nd the military consists of the national guard, you know the guys that help out in disasters, and the coast guard, you know the guys that come get you when your out ice fishing, or boating, so to suggest that pacifists don't contiribute because of an isolated instance isn't a viable comparison.

The greenie has no argument as well, because the highway system is in exsistance, and the utilize the highway system via their organic vegtable delivery and deliverys to the tofoo plant.

If the health care bill passes the only thing I get is another tax. No medical savings, Im not changing insurance. No benifit at all, just more expense forced on me.

You also said there are free clinics supported MOSTLY by doctors and donations, so you gave another unclear vauge answer. Are they supported soley by voluntary contributions, yes, or no.
If they are why do we keep hearing about unaffordable health care, and why do people keep posting things that say you CANT get medical attention.
I agree with the point you're getting at about opting out of paying taxes for certain things like the military and highway, as you point out, and would add things such as police, fire, most utilities (since most in the US are public as opposed to private). Certain things are good for the society we live in as a whole, and even if we don't directly use that particular service, it still enriches our lives.

Education is another example of this. While the public education system certainly has many flaws, the overall impact on society is better when we have a basic level of education provided and available to all. Private schools exist if you want to (and are able to pay to) receive a better education, and there are colleges that also allow for additional education as well.

You say you won't receive any benefit and only pay taxes if the health care bill passes, but I would argue that not worrying about the person next you in a public place having TB is a benefit. If prices continue as they have for health care, more and more people won't be able to afford health care and that may well become a concern. Currently, 30% of all US health care dollars are paid to stock holders and CEO's. That's not benefiting you, either.

The plan that is proposed is a public option, so you don't have to participate. hose who do participate will have to pay premiums, just like you do right now for private health insurance. This is somewhat like the Postal Service compared to UPS or FedEx. If you want to mail a letter or even a package for cheap, the post office is often a great choice and it's fairly reliable. If you want faster service, you have the option to use a private company like UPS or FedEx, but you will probably pay quite a bit more, especially for letters or for places that are a bit further away from the city, while the mail only charges based off distance between the sending and receiving locations.

By the way, I am a Christian, I agree there are values Christians have that are found in the beginning of our country, but I do not believe we are a "Christian" nation.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 11:32 AM   #190
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Oh, I think Toes meant that most free clinics are supported by donations and doctors volunteering their time as opposed to government support, although there are government supported ones as well. Typically these free clinics are quite busy and are limited as to what they can do because of their limited funds.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 01:13 PM   #191
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I agree with the point you're getting at about opting out of paying taxes for certain things like the military and highway, as you point out, and would add things such as police, fire, most utilities (since most in the US are public as opposed to private). Certain things are good for the society we live in as a whole, and even if we don't directly use that particular service, it still enriches our lives.

Education is another example of this. While the public education system certainly has many flaws, the overall impact on society is better when we have a basic level of education provided and available to all. Private schools exist if you want to (and are able to pay to) receive a better education, and there are colleges that also allow for additional education as well.

You say you won't receive any benefit and only pay taxes if the health care bill passes, but I would argue that not worrying about the person next you in a public place having TB is a benefit. If prices continue as they have for health care, more and more people won't be able to afford health care and that may well become a concern. Currently, 30% of all US health care dollars are paid to stock holders and CEO's. That's not benefiting you, either.

The plan that is proposed is a public option, so you don't have to participate. hose who do participate will have to pay premiums, just like you do right now for private health insurance. This is somewhat like the Postal Service compared to UPS or FedEx. If you want to mail a letter or even a package for cheap, the post office is often a great choice and it's fairly reliable. If you want faster service, you have the option to use a private company like UPS or FedEx, but you will probably pay quite a bit more, especially for letters or for places that are a bit further away from the city, while the mail only charges based off distance between the sending and receiving locations.

By the way, I am a Christian, I agree there are values Christians have that are found in the beginning of our country, but I do not believe we are a "Christian" nation.

Well, I'm glad you're a Christian. I agree that our Country has gotten away from our original roots. However, the point B-man was trying to make is that there are many Christians that try and use "Our country was founded on Christian Principles" to say we shouldn't have abortion or Gay marriage but when it comes to health care we say no. The Misconception is that Christians are supposed to give thier money unconditionally. This is not true as we are also called to be good Stewards of our money. (Something else the Government is not doing too well.) It is unwise to give a person help when they aren't willing to show a little effort to get it. . King Solomon would consider them fools. Just a thought. And yes B-man I get your point and I like it.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 01:15 PM   #192
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That could work. Low cost (but no free) no frills clinics where people without insurance could get basic health care. Everyone would get billed the same amount but would pay based upon thier ability to pay.

The problem would be finding medical preffesionals that wanted to work there. Maybe have a special student finacial aid program with one of the provisions be that they work at the "poor clinic" for so many years.
There is actually a provision in the bill for this. But since it allows for some preferential treatment of minorities to entice people to work in inner city areas, it is racist (according to some) and the whole reform bill should be scrapped.

By the way, there are also provisions for this kind of medical facility help in rural (read white) areas as well, without the minority preferences.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 05:57 PM   #193
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Well, I'm glad you're a Christian. I agree that our Country has gotten away from our original roots. However, the point B-man was trying to make is that there are many Christians that try and use "Our country was founded on Christian Principles" to say we shouldn't have abortion or Gay marriage but when it comes to health care we say no. The Misconception is that Christians are supposed to give thier money unconditionally. This is not true as we are also called to be good Stewards of our money. (Something else the Government is not doing too well.) It is unwise to give a person help when they aren't willing to show a little effort to get it. . King Solomon would consider them fools. Just a thought. And yes B-man I get your point and I like it.
In essence, I was trying to agree with the point, with some clarification since you brought up the points. Some things, like abortion, I object to not only because I'm a Christian, but because I believe life begins at conception and therefore I view abortion as murder. I cannot in anyway separate the the view and therefore endorse abortion, because it already violates the laws we have against taking the life of another human. Gay "marriage", since you bring it up, is a different thing that I object to as a Christian but do not think it is the government's place to institutionalize my standards because that violates the right to freedom of religion we embrace. The position Christians are told to take is not one of condemning anyone for what they do outside the Church (meaning people who profess to be Christians, not just people who attend), but offering them grace and love. As Jesus said, remove the log from your eye before pointing at the speck in neighbor, and that second to loving God, love your neighbor as yourself. So my point is that sometimes people, who may have good intentions, go about things the wrong way. Legislating morality does not work because it does not deal with the heart, something Jesus talked about quite a bit to the Jewish leaders of his time on earth.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 08:42 PM   #194
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In essence, I was trying to agree with the point, with some clarification since you brought up the points. Some things, like abortion, I object to not only because I'm a Christian, but because I believe life begins at conception and therefore I view abortion as murder. I cannot in anyway separate the the view and therefore endorse abortion, because it already violates the laws we have against taking the life of another human. Gay "marriage", since you bring it up, is a different thing that I object to as a Christian but do not think it is the government's place to institutionalize my standards because that violates the right to freedom of religion we embrace. The position Christians are told to take is not one of condemning anyone for what they do outside the Church (meaning people who profess to be Christians, not just people who attend), but offering them grace and love. As Jesus said, remove the log from your eye before pointing at the speck in neighbor, and that second to loving God, love your neighbor as yourself. So my point is that sometimes people, who may have good intentions, go about things the wrong way. Legislating morality does not work because it does not deal with the heart, something Jesus talked about quite a bit to the Jewish leaders of his time on earth.
I was just Clarifing. If you couldn't tell from My Previous posts I am Christian too. I completely agree with what you're saying. "Legislating Morality" is a great way to put it. Nobody can Change the heart except the person or God.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 02:00 AM   #195
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I agree with the point you're getting at about opting out of paying taxes for certain things like the military and highway, as you point out, and would add things such as police, fire, most utilities (since most in the US are public as opposed to private). Certain things are good for the society we live in as a whole, and even if we don't directly use that particular service, it still enriches our lives.

Education is another example of this. While the public education system certainly has many flaws, the overall impact on society is better when we have a basic level of education provided and available to all. Private schools exist if you want to (and are able to pay to) receive a better education, and there are colleges that also allow for additional education as well.

You say you won't receive any benefit and only pay taxes if the health care bill passes, but I would argue that not worrying about the person next you in a public place having TB is a benefit. If prices continue as they have for health care, more and more people won't be able to afford health care and that may well become a concern. Currently, 30% of all US health care dollars are paid to stock holders and CEO's. That's not benefiting you, either.

The plan that is proposed is a public option, so you don't have to participate. hose who do participate will have to pay premiums, just like you do right now for private health insurance. This is somewhat like the Postal Service compared to UPS or FedEx. If you want to mail a letter or even a package for cheap, the post office is often a great choice and it's fairly reliable. If you want faster service, you have the option to use a private company like UPS or FedEx, but you will probably pay quite a bit more, especially for letters or for places that are a bit further away from the city, while the mail only charges based off distance between the sending and receiving locations.

By the way, I am a Christian, I agree there are values Christians have that are found in the beginning of our country, but I do not believe we are a "Christian" nation.
None of your examples are good.

Public schools, failure.
Cheaper to send your kids to private schools, if given your tax dollars back that you already pay to the public school system. (Vouchers)

Public "option" for health care. Will fail.
As I've posted before somewhere around here, private business can not compete with the Federal Government.

USPS, complete failure. Postal service can not function without taxpayer dollars. If treated as a private business, it would have closed long ago.
The only reason they still exist is because federal law protects them against Fedex and UPS etc.

The first step in health care reform is Tort reform.

The Government HAS NEVER had a successful program. EVER.
It's just unbelievable that people think any public option will work.

As for God, how about we leave him out of government completely.
I'm damn sick of political leaders believing they are guided by god. You don't need god to do the right, moral things in life.

The bible thumping right-wing makes me just about as sick as the liberal left.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 09:34 AM   #196
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None of your examples are good.

Public schools, failure.
Cheaper to send your kids to private schools, if given your tax dollars back that you already pay to the public school system. (Vouchers)

Public "option" for health care. Will fail.
As I've posted before somewhere around here, private business can not compete with the Federal Government.

USPS, complete failure. Postal service can not function without taxpayer dollars. If treated as a private business, it would have closed long ago.
The only reason they still exist is because federal law protects them against Fedex and UPS etc.

The first step in health care reform is Tort reform.

The Government HAS NEVER had a successful program. EVER.
It's just unbelievable that people think any public option will work.

As for God, how about we leave him out of government completely.
I'm damn sick of political leaders believing they are guided by god. You don't need god to do the right, moral things in life.

The bible thumping right-wing makes me just about as sick as the liberal left.

I like the part where you can be a good person without being a Jesus freak.

x1 bajillion on Tort reform.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 09:42 AM   #197
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I know of multiple women who: Get pregnant and get on WIC. Then when the baby gets here; they get Food Stamps. Then they take the baby to the doctors and claim it has autism or something; so they sign the child up for SSI. Then they get child support from the father... Then they try to find a "new man" and suck him clean for money.

World is in hard time imho.
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 07:29 PM   #198
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None of your examples are good.

Public schools, failure.
Cheaper to send your kids to private schools, if given your tax dollars back that you already pay to the public school system. (Vouchers)

Public "option" for health care. Will fail.
As I've posted before somewhere around here, private business can not compete with the Federal Government.

USPS, complete failure. Postal service can not function without taxpayer dollars. If treated as a private business, it would have closed long ago.
The only reason they still exist is because federal law protects them against Fedex and UPS etc.

The first step in health care reform is Tort reform.

The Government HAS NEVER had a successful program. EVER.
It's just unbelievable that people think any public option will work.

As for God, how about we leave him out of government completely.
I'm damn sick of political leaders believing they are guided by god. You don't need god to do the right, moral things in life.

The bible thumping right-wing makes me just about as sick as the liberal left.
Agree-able. As for God, well He is part of us weather you like it or not, take it or leave it, that is why He gives us free will.
The political leaders must be lieing about being guided by God because what ever they are doing its not from God.
You may not need God to do the right moral things in life, but to use Him as a compass wouldn't hurt.
So hearing the harsh reality of truth, is as bad as the back stabbing lieing to your face liberal left. ummmm
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 07:32 PM   #199
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I like the part where you can be a good person without being a Jesus freak.

x1 bajillion on Tort reform.
Of course you can be a good person without being a Christian. But isn't there more to it than just being a good person?
Just a thought
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Old August 23rd, 2009, 10:08 PM   #200
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[QUOTE=dfreeman616@gmail;1819856]

You say you won't receive any benefit and only pay taxes if the health care bill passes, but I would argue that not worrying about the person next you in a public place having TB is a benefit. Your grasping here.
If prices continue as they have for health care, more and more people won't be able to afford health care and that may well become a concern. Currently, 30% of all US health care dollars are paid to stock holders and CEO's. That's not benefiting you, either. Thats fine they can't afford it, so who will pay for it, remember I already have my insurance in place...

The plan that is proposed is a public option, so you don't have to participate. hose who do participate will have to pay premiums, How do they pay the premiun????just like you do right now for private health insurance. This is somewhat like the Postal Service compared to UPS or FedEx. If you want to mail a letter or even a package for cheap, the post office is often a great choice and it's fairly reliable. If you want faster service, you have the option to use a private company like UPS or FedEx, but you will probably pay quite a bit more, especially for letters or for places that are a bit further away from the city, while the mail only charges based off distance between the sending and receiving locations.


You forgot the part about being charged if you don't carry heatlh insurance, Im against that 1 billion percent
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