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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:31 PM   #101
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Call me a pinko commie liberal pussy but telling some "sorry that your dieing of a treatable illness because you can't afford treatment, but hey, I have problems of my own, your dieing is your problem" hardly sounds compassionate.
I hardly see you as the person that would line up to give a guy your arm when his is lopped off from gangrene.

So what are we supposed to do? Have everyone else give them money so they can pay for it? Give them clothing, food, shelter, etc.?

When does one person having a disease have to do with anyone else? How is anyone else required or responsible to do anything for that person? They aren't, they don't have to, and other people should have the choice if they want to or not. They shouldn't be forced by a national healthcare plan through taxes, or whatever. Charity can't be forced.

I give to charity and do what I can when I can. I shouldn't be forced to do it. Compassion can't be forced either. You can't make laws on it.

If someone breaks their leg, or gets herpes one county over, should I really give a shit?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #102
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I agree that we should be able to do better. The costs need to come down.

Like I said, having someone else pay for it is not the answer.

I'm not saying I don't have compassion. I have my own problems to deal with and pay for, and I don't expect for one second to make anyone else pay for my issues and my problems. I don't expect anyone else to expect me to pay for their issues, because of the luck of the draw they have gotten the short end of a stick. Not my problem or anyone else's for that matter.

I'll feel sorry for them, feel bad, talk about how it sucks, wish them luck, do what I can to help, but at the end of the day it's still their problem.

You have insurance, others will pay if you have a catastrohpic injury or illness.

Insurance is about having a pool of money. Everybody puts in, but only those that need it take out.

There is no way you would be able to pay cash if you had any kind of major injury of disease and had an extended hospital stay or extended treatment.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:42 PM   #103
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I hardly see you as the person that would line up to give a guy your arm when his is lopped off from gangrene./
Maybe he would not get gangrene if he felt he could afford to go see a doctor right after the injury?

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are we supposed to do? Have everyone else give them money so they can pay for it? Give them clothing, food, shelter, etc.?

When does one person having a disease have to do with anyone else? How is anyone else required or responsible to do anything for that person? They aren't, they don't have to, and other people should have the choice if they want to or not. They shouldn't be forced by a national healthcare plan through taxes, or whatever. Charity can't be forced.
I don't really fully agree with forcing people into some kind of private or public health care, but I can see the point in doing so. Uninsured people in hospitals is one of the factors pushing the cost up on helath care for all of us. That particular provision is a way of leveling the playing field

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to charity and do what I can when I can. I shouldn't be forced to do it. Compassion can't be forced either. You can't make laws on it.
I think the idea here is a little from everybody, into the pool helps the whole, like insurance.......Oh yea, the exchange will be partly funded by premiums paid by those using the exchange.......yea, thats right,, health care reform does no equate to free handouts for everybody........

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If someone breaks their leg, or gets herpes one county over, should I really give a shit?
With that logic, what about roads, emergency services, etc. SHould you have to pay anything in to have a road fixed in a county you do not regularly travel in?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:44 PM   #104
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What makes you think she will be getting money from the taxpayers?

She is a very well educated IT analyst who would have no problem finding another job. And that isn't even her prime interest. Medical Administration. She just received her Baccalaureate, and working towards a Masters.

What the reform bill calls for, in this case, is an end to denial based on pre-existing conditions.
A person would be able to carry his health insurance (private or public) from one job to another and not be denied coverage if that person had a health problem while under a previous plan, or no plan at all.

I agree that people should not be denied coverage due to the pre-existing condition. People do not have the choice to pick what diseases they do or do not have.


So, what are you saying? If a person has a genetic defect, FUKC THEM?

No, I'm saying that it's really no one's fault for a disease someone has. If anything, it's their family history and genetics. I did not say screw them because they have a genetic "lean" towards a certain condition. I was trying to explain if someone has a disease, it's not their neighbor's problem or their government's problem.


Again, my example is of a person who does pay for her health insurance, She is gainfully employed. Her skills are very marketable. She is no slacker or slouch.

But, under todays system, if she is dropped from the insurance she has now, it is possible her condition will not be covered by her next insurance carrier. It is now, but won't be then. I personally have no problem with this being changed.

I agree with you there and agree that should be changed.


I too have health care through work and I also have a rather large portion I pay for out of pocket, not to mention other out of pocket expenses through the year.

But, you and I could both fall under the same conditions my co-worker is in with regards to a medical condition. And then what if you move from one job to another. Screw you, too bad, so sad. You Die. Talk about a death panel situation. Insurance Company style.



Part of the reform bill as well.



That is a stretch to go from making health care more affordable and available, to a complete melt down of the American system. But because people are frightened of this possibility (slight) they will forego something that could help change peoples lives, all of our lives for the better.

You trust the government way too much. With the track record of Obama and many of the other Dems in control right now, further restrictions and invasions into people's lives is not a slight fear if you ask me. The government should not be running healthcare, period.
I'm not saying that our healthcare system is perfect.

Costs need to be driven down someway, and the pre-existing conditions thing has to go. I completely agree with that.

If you haven't had insurance for 30 years, then get a disease, and try to get insurance to pay for it, then that's a stretch for letting that fly. There should be some time of time period put on that based on average unemployment times, lay-offs, or something like that.

To Sova, I also agree that no one should die from a completely curable disease. But, it still happens, and will continue to happen even under a government run program. People die from a simple bacterial infection. That's just the reality of things. People have to take more responsibility in how they treat themselves health wise.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:47 PM   #105
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Maybe he would not get gangrene if he felt he could afford to go see a doctor right after the injury?

There is Medicare and Medicaid. If he is so poor he can't afford a simple office visit, there are several free clinics that are out there. If he has insurance or some type of coverage, but doesn't want to pay a $50 office visit because that's a fifth of JD and a pack of smokes, that's another issue altogether.

I don't really fully agree with forcing people into some kind of private or public health care, but I can see the point in doing so. Uninsured people in hospitals is one of the factors pushing the cost up on helath care for all of us. That particular provision is a way of leveling the playing field

There has to be another solution than just waving a wand and giving them coverage.

I think the idea here is a little from everybody, into the pool helps the whole, like insurance.......Oh yea, the exchange will be partly funded by premiums paid by those using the exchange.......yea, thats right,, health care reform does no equate to free handouts for everybody........



With that logic, what about roads, emergency services, etc. SHould you have to pay anything in to have a road fixed in a county you do not regularly travel in?

Stop comparing apples to oranges. A road owned by the government is not even remotely close to comparing it to someone who broke their own leg.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:48 PM   #106
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You have insurance, others will pay if you have a catastrohpic injury or illness.

Insurance is about having a pool of money. Everybody puts in, but only those that need it take out.

There is no way you would be able to pay cash if you had any kind of major injury of disease and had an extended hospital stay or extended treatment.
But they are getting coverage in return, from other people who are paying for the same thing. No one is being forced to pay their insurance premiums.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #107
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No, actually, I do not trust the government much at all.

My arguments here are about what is written into a bill, not the tin foil hat, worst case scenario many around here believe.

ANd I don't think the "track record" is all that bad. At least not any worse than what has come from the right. But that is based on my own morals and ideals. Same as your opinion on the "track record" is.

I can't speak directly here to the points you made on my last couple of posts. Your red text does not translate well when quoting.

Your original response to my example was exactly what I countered. What you posted in red is mor along the lines of the kind of person I know you are.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:56 PM   #108
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If you haven't had insurance for 30 years, then get a disease, and try to get insurance to pay for it, then that's a stretch for letting that fly. There should be some time of time period put on that based on average unemployment times, lay-offs, or something like that.
But what about the oppisite situation. You've been working and paying for insurance for for 30 years, then get laid off, a just after your insurance runs our you have a heart attack?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 02:59 PM   #109
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But they are getting coverage in return, from other people who are paying for the same thing. No one is being forced to pay their insurance premiums.

You missed my point, insurance does not equte to paying in full for all services you get, it is using the pool. Everyone in the poll hopes not too many get sick or injured, or else the restrictions and denials start.

In our society, it is not whether you can afford health care or not, it is whether you can afford health insurance or not.

Most of us get it through our employer. Group plans are what keep it affordable to us. The Exchange, proposed in the bill (public option) would be a group of insurers offering group plan rates to individuals. The governments part would be to set standards of coverage for those offering thier sevices in the Exchange. Oh, and there would be 3 different levels of coverage, each more expensive in premiums for the consumer.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:03 PM   #110
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There is Medicare and Medicaid.

Not all people qualify for these programs.

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If he is so poor he can't afford a simple office visit, there are several free clinics that are out there.
Not everyone is near a free clinic, especially those in rural areas. Another provision in the plan would be to make medical help available in a more consistent manner in rural areas. Incentives to doctors to get them in those places.


Quote:
If he has insurance or some type of coverage, but doesn't want to pay a $50 office visit because that's a fifth of JD and a pack of smokes, that's another issue altogether.
Yes it is, that is just plan stupidity.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:03 PM   #111
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I have a co-worker who was recently diagnosed with a liver tumor of some sort (I do not know all of the details). If she were to lose her job her she would be hard pressed to find insurance that would cover this because it would be considered a pre-existing condition.

One of the points of the reform bill is to do away with that out for the insurance companies.

By Toes own numbers, health insurance at $1000 per month = $12,000 per year. If you make 30 or 40k a year, you still have to provide housing and food and transportation and other necessities. $12k off the top, plus deductables and non covered costs, does not leave much for the rest. BTW, the average wage in the U.S. in 2007 was $40,405.48. Guess people just have to work harder
Blue Cross Blue Shield covers pre existing conditions
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:04 PM   #112
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Blue Cross Blue Shield covers pre existing conditions


All of thier policies? And, if so, at what monetary cost?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:07 PM   #113
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LOL I'll take that as a compliment.

Mostly I just like to challenge the majority opinion. The further one way it goes the further I have to go the other way to oppose it.

If I was sitting around with a bunch of liberals I'd be arguing for your side. (Ask PeteC, he was there.)

My true feeling lie much closer to the center. I consider myself an extreme moderate.

Extreme moderate=centalized liberal
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:13 PM   #114
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But what about the oppisite situation. You've been working and paying for insurance for for 30 years, then get laid off, a just after your insurance runs our you have a heart attack?
Bad luck for you. Two things you could have done or do. Don't pay any health insurance premium instead put that money in the bank at the best rate you can and, well lets see, $1,000.00 a month x 12 mos = $12,000.00 x 30 years = $760,000.00 plus the intrest you made should put you well over a million dollars, and on the other thread you showed bypass for $8,000.00. You should still be a million to the good.
Or
You get laid off so you go take what ever job you have to to keep your insurance to date....

Either way YOU are still in control, and you are the responsible party...Not me
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:21 PM   #115
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You missed my point, insurance does not equte to paying in full for all services you get, it is using the pool. Everyone in the poll hopes not too many get sick or injured, or else the restrictions and denials start.

In our society, it is not whether you can afford health care or not, it is whether you can afford health insurance or not.

Most of us get it through our employer. Group plans are what keep it affordable to us. The Exchange, proposed in the bill (public option) would be a group of insurers offering group plan rates to individuals. The governments part would be to set standards of coverage for those offering thier sevices in the Exchange. Oh, and there would be 3 different levels of coverage, each more expensive in premiums for the consumer.

Theres a huge problem there, you have been convinced of that. The B.S. with insurance vs Health care is like having a problem with your dry wall due to a leaky roof and you keep talking about how to fix the drywall and never address the roof. Your pissing in the wind.
Brewski posted cheap medical procedures in other countries, so either his post was a legit arguement as to over priced healthcare here or hes full of shit posting garabage. Which one you think it is???
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:25 PM   #116
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You notice that you, brew, pete, me, and some others (who all happen to be liberals) walk more in the path of the teachings of jesus than these christians do? And we're not even in their fukcing club!
Now that is like tooting your own horn and your friends horn too.
Talk is cheap. And it is not an f...ing club either.
So then then maybe you can tell me what path is it that you are on and does it line up with scripture?
Just a thought
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Old August 19th, 2009, 03:30 PM   #117
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All of thier policies? And, if so, at what monetary cost?
It's like the 400.00 a month plan covers everything except dr office visits and 500.00 deductable for the year
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Old August 19th, 2009, 05:00 PM   #118
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Stephen Fraser is an Anesthesiologist in Indianapolis .
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

Here is a letter I sent to Senator Bayh. Feel free to copy it and send it around to other representatives.

Stephen Fraser
July 23, 2009


Senator Bayh,

As a practicing physician I have major concerns with the healthcare bill before Congress. I actually have read the bill and am shocked by the brazenness of the government's proposed involvement in the patient physician relationship. The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a healthcare system that works for all. Every physician I work with agrees that we need to fix our healthcare system, but the proposed bills currently making their way through congress will be a disaster if passed.
I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.


Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self insure!!
Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!
Page 42 of HC Bill:The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!
Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.
Page 65 Sec 164: is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations: (ACORN).
Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.
Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!
Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation: illegal aliens.
Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.
Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.
Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.

Page 124 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monopoly.
Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association - The Govt will tell YOU what you can make! (salary)

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE!

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
Page 150 Lines 9-13: Business's with payroll btw 251k & 401k who doesn't provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)
Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans finances /personal records.
Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that!
Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors, low income and poor are affected.
Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors, doesn't matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same!
Page 253 Line 10-18: Govt sets value of Doctor's time, proffession, judgment etc. Literally value of humans.
Page 265 Sec 1131: Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
Page 268 Sec 1141: Federal Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever Govt deems preventable re-admissions.
Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -Govt will penalize you.
Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what/how much they can own!
Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.
Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. Can u say ACORN?!!
Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.
Page 341 Lines 3-9: Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan.
Page 354 Sec 1177: Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people! Unbelievable!
Page 379 Sec 1191: Govt creates more bureaucracy - Tele-health Advisory Comittee. Can you say HC by phone?
Page 425 Lines 4-12: Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life patients.
Page 425 Lines 17-19: Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death. (assisted suicide)
Page 427 Lines 15-24: Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The govt has a say in how your life ends.
Page 429 Lines 1-9: An "advanced care planning consultant" will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
Page 429 Lines 10-12: "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOVT!
Page 429 Lines 13-25: The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life!
Page 469: Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit organizations. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17: PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORIGINATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. Like ACORN?
Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage.
Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.


Senator,
I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.
Furthermore, If you vote for a bill that enforces socialized medicine on the country and destroys the doctor/patient relationship, I will do everything in my power to make sure you lose your job in the next election.

Respectfully,
Stephen E Fraser MD





some one emailed this to me>...
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Old August 19th, 2009, 05:09 PM   #119
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The very idea that the government will dictate and ration patient care is dangerous and certainly not helpful in designing a healthcare system that works for all.
But every insurance company dictates and rations care. Why shouldn't the government program do teh same?
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Old August 19th, 2009, 07:35 PM   #120
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But every insurance company dictates and rations care. Why shouldn't the government program do teh same?
Change. I think somebody was preaching that for quite a while.

I heard on the radio today that the dealers aren't getting their $4,500.00 clunker money, and it's killing their cash flow.
The government says don't worry........

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