Go Back   Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
GL4x4 Live! GL4x4 Casino

Politics, Government, or Religion Chat Bring your flamesuit!







Search
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 19th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #81
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,556
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISHOWJEEPER View Post
See, i'm an adult. I take responsibility for myself. If I can't afford it, i'll work harder, and sacrifice more things that aren't necessary. If you give people the excuse to slack off on their responsibilities, they will.

I have a co-worker who was recently diagnosed with a liver tumor of some sort (I do not know all of the details). If she were to lose her job her she would be hard pressed to find insurance that would cover this because it would be considered a pre-existing condition.

One of the points of the reform bill is to do away with that out for the insurance companies.

By Toes own numbers, health insurance at $1000 per month = $12,000 per year. If you make 30 or 40k a year, you still have to provide housing and food and transportation and other necessities. $12k off the top, plus deductables and non covered costs, does not leave much for the rest. BTW, the average wage in the U.S. in 2007 was $40,405.48. Guess people just have to work harder
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 08:57 AM   #82
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post

Thats so funny. I don't think I would be comfortable with an $ 8,000.00 heart by pass when I pay more that that for an engine repower in an excavator, or a set of tracks for a dozer...
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 09:08 AM   #83
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,556
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
WTF you let AGB use your avitar, the shit your laying out there sounds as bad as his right now. Thats not you at all, whats up with that.....

What you have described is people that aren't working, let them get out in the market place and work 2 or 3 jobs to pay for what they want. No more cable T.V., cell phone, computer, sell all their toys, no drinking, smoking, restaurants, walk every place you can, turn the heat down in the winter, air off in the summer, mow some lawns on the weekend, quit drinking sodas and red bulls or monsters, buy your clothes at garage sales or the salvation army, no smoking any bud, sell your car with the car payment and buy a car for cash and old ugly one that you don't look cool in.

Sorry but I'm still stuck on people won't do what they need to.

You really think everyone that does not have health insurance fits into that profile?
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 09:08 AM   #84
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
I have a co-worker who was recently diagnosed with a liver tumor of some sort (I do not know all of the details). If she were to lose her job her she would be hard pressed to find insurance that would cover this because it would be considered a pre-existing condition.

One of the points of the reform bill is to do away with that out for the insurance companies.

By Toes own numbers, health insurance at $1000 per month = $12,000 per year. If you make 30 or 40k a year, you still have to provide housing and food and transportation and other necessities. $12k off the top, plus deductables and non covered costs, does not leave much for the rest. BTW, the average wage in the U.S. in 2007 was $40,405.48. Guess people just have to work harder
Exactly right, you want that $12,000.00 a year insurance firgure out how to make, or save about $35.00 a day. thats 350 returnable cans and bottles, 7 pounds of scrap copper, one lawn to mow. Cut the 2 packs of smokes and now you only need $25.00, the 5 pops you drink now your under 20 bucks.

Heres a thought get the $500.00 a month insurance, or shop till you find the $350.00 a month insurance.

Better yet move to one of those countries with the bargin doctors, then the government might get off trying to make me pay for the lazy ass that wants free shit.
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 09:17 AM   #85
Mr Toes - R.I.P.
November 7, 1958 - July 22, 2011
 
Mr Toes - R.I.P.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: 07-29-07
Location: Belleville Mi
Posts: 4,727
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
You really think everyone that does not have health insurance fits into that profile?
Maybe not exactly that, but I'm real comfortable making the statement that anyone who dosen't have insurance could do more to get it. People have to start being accountable for themselves, our work ethic and ambition in this country is gone.Who do you know that is willing to risk everything to start their own business, or is willing to take a second shit job. Go work all day on a day off for $50.00 over goofing off with their friends. It dosen't happen anymore, and I'm not giving them anything, they don't deserve it.
Mr Toes - R.I.P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 11:16 AM   #86
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,945
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan View Post
To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them. Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
I second this.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 11:51 AM   #87
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Toes View Post
WTF you let AGB use your avitar, the shit your laying out there sounds as bad as his right now. Thats not you at all, whats up with that.....
LOL I'll take that as a compliment.

Mostly I just like to challenge the majority opinion. The further one way it goes the further I have to go the other way to oppose it.

If I was sitting around with a bunch of liberals I'd be arguing for your side. (Ask PeteC, he was there.)

My true feeling lie much closer to the center. I consider myself an extreme moderate.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 11:55 AM   #88
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,556
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
LOL I'll take that as a compliment.

Mostly I just like to challenge the majority opinion. The further one way it goes the further I have to go the other way to oppose it.

If I was sitting around with a bunch of liberals I'd be arguing for your side. (Ask PeteC, he was there.)

My true feeling lie much closer to the center. I consider myself an extreme moderate.

Yes, I was there, it was my back yard. He debated points with my parents if I remember correctly.

I was just sitting back drinking cold ones.

And yes, Bruce is what some call a moderate. We have that in common. Even though some of our views on individual topics may be different, we are both very near the center over all.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #89
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Yes, I was there, it was my back yard. He debated points with my parents if I remember correctly.

I was just sitting back drinking cold ones.

And yes, Bruce is what some call a moderate. We have that in common. Even though some of our views on individual topics may be different, we are both very near the center over all.
Your parents and I think his name was Larry, the guy from acress the street, who may as well have been AGoodBuzz, right down to having lost a first wife to cancer.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 12:28 PM   #90
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,945
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
I have a co-worker who was recently diagnosed with a liver tumor of some sort (I do not know all of the details). If she were to lose her job her she would be hard pressed to find insurance that would cover this because it would be considered a pre-existing condition.

One of the points of the reform bill is to do away with that out for the insurance companies.

By Toes own numbers, health insurance at $1000 per month = $12,000 per year. If you make 30 or 40k a year, you still have to provide housing and food and transportation and other necessities. $12k off the top, plus deductables and non covered costs, does not leave much for the rest. BTW, the average wage in the U.S. in 2007 was $40,405.48. Guess people just have to work harder
I hate to be a dick, but whose fault is that? So other taxpayers should have to pay now because she has a tumor? It's now the government's fault?

Isn't it her family history and genetics that are to blame?

The thing that pisses me off about this whole healthcare discussion is that we're trying to place blame on someone for things that there is no one to blame, it's just life.

People have the right to medical treatment, but do not have the right to have insurance given to them. You're given the hand that's dealt to you, and you have to do your best to play it. It sucks, but that's life.

I have health insurance through work. It still isn't cheap, and I still have to pay some money out of pocket. I bitch about it, it sucks. $600 for full bloodwork that I have to still pay $155 to cover it sucks, but if I want to stay healthy I have to suck it up. I could quit drinking beer, sell my video game systems, get a cheaper car etc, if I needed to so I could be healthy.

My fiance sees it all the time though, where people are being told they need to make changes to become more healthy, they don't, then are pissed when they have to pay for treatment they probably wouldn't have needed if they had quit smoking, lost weight etc. Then they say they can't afford it, smoking 3 packs a day. It's their priorities that are out of wack. These are the people that come to my mind that want national healthcare.

It does suck that things cost so much. Legal BS has raised the prices way too high. Doctor's insurance to cover their ass is ridiculously high. People think doctors have deep pockets, so they try to sue for whatever to get money. Drug companies need to stop advertising. It's up to the doctor to determine what drug you need, not the consumer watching some commercial showing a beach and talking about herpes.

Hospitals are non-profit (as most large insurance companies), but they still compete. They have found out they can raise prices as they already know what Medicare and Medicaid will pay, so they can get fancier TVs so people like being there. They also have different pay structures depending on if you have insurance or not. They do what they can to get the most money, and IMO it isn't all that fair.

If you want to reform anything, reform the legal issues surrounding how people can sue doctors when their kid is born with a defect that isn't any fault of the doctor's for example, and reform the billing.

But, do we really want the US government...the most wasteful, inefficient, expensive, heads up their ass, can't run a profitable business even if it was selling toilet paper, running our healthcare? Think of your last trip to the SOS. You probably waited a long time, dealt with a grumpy person, and were probably annoyed with the way the system worked.

I also fear that this opens a door for the government to invade our lives even more. Pretty soon because you have national healthcare forced on you, they can determine how many kids you will have, when you're not worth paying for anymore, do genetic screenings for health issues, etc. It's too much. Pretty soon we'll all wake up and realize we're now a socialist nation. I want the government interfering with my life as little as possible, and I want to make my own choices.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 12:51 PM   #91
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I hate to be a dick, but whose fault is that? So other taxpayers should have to pay now because she has a tumor? It's now the government's fault?

Isn't it her family history and genetics that are to blame?

The thing that pisses me off about this whole healthcare discussion is that we're trying to place blame on someone for things that there is no one to blame, it's just life.
It's not about placing blame. It's about giving people like Pete is talking about another option besides dieing of treatable illness or going broke trying to treat it and leaving the hospital holding the bill.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 01:10 PM   #92
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,945
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
It's not about placing blame. It's about giving people like Pete is talking about another option besides dieing of treatable illness or going broke trying to treat it and leaving the hospital holding the bill.
If you can't afford it, oh well. You can only drive down the price so much. Making other people pay for it isn't the answer. So it is placing the blame. Since the individual can't pay for it, well then it's the hospitals and doctor's fault, or the insurance company is a bunch of sniveling crooks, etc. We're placing the blame for why a person can't pay for their own medical treatments.

How is paying for surgery or medical procedures really any different than paying for other goods in services in a capitalist country?

Like I said, I agree it all costs too much, and there are things that should be done to reduce that. Making other people pay for it is not the answer. If you don't have insurance, can't afford it, etc....tough. It sucks, and I know it's pretty inconsiderate, but really what else can you do?

Just because you have a disease, problem, etc., doesn't mean that you should be guaranteed free treatment while someone else foots the bill for something that is about 99% your issue.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 01:23 PM   #93
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
If you can't afford it, oh well. You can only drive down the price so much. Making other people pay for it isn't the answer. So it is placing the blame. Since the individual can't pay for it, well then it's the hospitals and doctor's fault, or the insurance company is a bunch of sniveling crooks, etc. We're placing the blame for why a person can't pay for their own medical treatments.

How is paying for surgery or medical procedures really any different than paying for other goods in services in a capitalist country?

Like I said, I agree it all costs too much, and there are things that should be done to reduce that. Making other people pay for it is not the answer. If you don't have insurance, can't afford it, etc....tough. It sucks, and I know it's pretty inconsiderate, but really what else can you do?

Just because you have a disease, problem, etc., doesn't mean that you should be guaranteed free treatment while someone else foots the bill for something that is about 99% your issue.
I think the word "responsibility" would fit better than "blame".

And if you are completely without compassion or concern for your fellow man then I can see your point. It just seems to me that the richest most powerful nation in the world should be able to care for it's citizens better.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 01:49 PM   #94
GreaseMonkey
Senior Member
 
GreaseMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-04-05
Location: Washington, MI
Posts: 17,945
iTrader: (22)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
I think the word "responsibility" would fit better than "blame".

And if you are completely without compassion or concern for your fellow man then I can see your point. It just seems to me that the richest most powerful nation in the world should be able to care for it's citizens better.
I agree that we should be able to do better. The costs need to come down.

Like I said, having someone else pay for it is not the answer.

I'm not saying I don't have compassion. I have my own problems to deal with and pay for, and I don't expect for one second to make anyone else pay for my issues and my problems. I don't expect anyone else to expect me to pay for their issues, because of the luck of the draw they have gotten the short end of a stick. Not my problem or anyone else's for that matter.

I'll feel sorry for them, feel bad, talk about how it sucks, wish them luck, do what I can to help, but at the end of the day it's still their problem.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryann View Post
I am not a lesbian but if I was I would do her.
GreaseMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:14 PM   #95
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,556
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn View Post
Your parents and I think his name was Larry, the guy from acress the street, who may as well have been AGoodBuzz, right down to having lost a first wife to cancer.

Yea, Larry apologized to JoAnn next time he had the chance. Not the best social skills when drinking. But, still a nice enough guy.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:14 PM   #96
brewmenn
Grumpy old man.
 
brewmenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Inkster, MI
Posts: 10,376
iTrader: (9)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I agree that we should be able to do better. The costs need to come down.

Like I said, having someone else pay for it is not the answer.

I'm not saying I don't have compassion. I have my own problems to deal with and pay for, and I don't expect for one second to make anyone else pay for my issues and my problems. I don't expect anyone else to expect me to pay for their issues, because of the luck of the draw they have gotten the short end of a stick. Not my problem or anyone else's for that matter.

I'll feel sorry for them, feel bad, talk about how it sucks, wish them luck, do what I can to help, but at the end of the day it's still their problem.
Call me a pinko commie liberal pussy but telling some "sorry that your dieing of a treatable illness because you can't afford treatment, but hey, I have problems of my own, your dieing is your problem" hardly sounds compassionate.
brewmenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #97
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Having a discussion with your doctor is not, if it is included in a regular visit.

However, there is much more to "end-of-life" issues that can not simply be dealt with by having a discussion with your doctor.

ANd for the sake of this argument, the term "end-of-life" is not exclusive to a persons actual death. It involves a wide variety of issues facing senior citizens in this country. Wills, living wills, power of attorney, senior living arrangements, long term medications, healthy living information, dietary, exercise, etc., etc.
It's more than seniors too. End of life can happen to the terminally ill at any age.
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #98
mikesova
My 4x4 is a Subaru.
 
mikesova's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Gladwin, MI
Posts: 7,757
iTrader: (1)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Send a message via AIM to mikesova
Default

No one should die in this country because of a treatable disease.
mikesova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #99
AGoodBuzz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 12-09-07
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,557
iTrader: (0)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesova View Post
No one should die in this country because of a treatable disease.
You notice that you, brew, pete, me, and some others (who all happen to be liberals) walk more in the path of the teachings of jesus than these christians do? And we're not even in their fukcing club!
AGoodBuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #100
PeteC
Get Up and Go
 
Join Date: 11-05-05
Location: Oak Park, Michigan
Posts: 2,556
iTrader: (3)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey View Post
I hate to be a dick, but whose fault is that? So other taxpayers should have to pay now because she has a tumor? It's now the government's fault?

What makes you think she will be getting money from the taxpayers?

She is a very well educated IT analyst who would have no problem finding another job. And that isn't even her prime interest. Medical Administration. She just received her Baccalaureate, and working towards a Masters.

What the reform bill calls for, in this case, is an end to denial based on pre-existing conditions.
A person would be able to carry his health insurance (private or public) from one job to another and not be denied coverage if that person had a health problem while under a previous plan, or no plan at all.

Quote:
Isn't it her family history and genetics that are to blame?
So, what are you saying? If a person has a genetic defect, FUKC THEM?


Quote:

The thing that pisses me off about this whole healthcare discussion is that we're trying to place blame on someone for things that there is no one to blame, it's just life.

People have the right to medical treatment, but do not have the right to have insurance given to them. You're given the hand that's dealt to you, and you have to do your best to play it. It sucks, but that's life.
Again, my example is of a person who does pay for her health insurance, She is gainfully employed. Her skills are very marketable. She is no slacker or slouch.

But, under todays system, if she is dropped from the insurance she has now, it is possible her condition will not be covered by her next insurance carrier. It is now, but won't be then. I personally have no problem with this being changed.


Quote:
I have health insurance through work. It still isn't cheap, and I still have to pay some money out of pocket. I bitch about it, it sucks. $600 for full bloodwork that I have to still pay $155 to cover it sucks, but if I want to stay healthy I have to suck it up. I could quit drinking beer, sell my video game systems, get a cheaper car etc, if I needed to so I could be healthy.
I too have health care through work and I also have a rather large portion I pay for out of pocket, not to mention other out of pocket expenses through the year.

But, you and I could both fall under the same conditions my co-worker is in with regards to a medical condition. And then what if you move from one job to another. Screw you, too bad, so sad. You Die. Talk about a death panel situation. Insurance Company style.

Quote:
My fiance sees it all the time though, where people are being told they need to make changes to become more healthy, they don't, then are pissed when they have to pay for treatment they probably wouldn't have needed if they had quit smoking, lost weight etc. Then they say they can't afford it, smoking 3 packs a day. It's their priorities that are out of wack. These are the people that come to my mind that want national healthcare.

It does suck that things cost so much. Legal BS has raised the prices way too high. Doctor's insurance to cover their ass is ridiculously high. People think doctors have deep pockets, so they try to sue for whatever to get money. Drug companies need to stop advertising. It's up to the doctor to determine what drug you need, not the consumer watching some commercial showing a beach and talking about herpes.

Hospitals are non-profit (as most large insurance companies), but they still compete. They have found out they can raise prices as they already know what Medicare and Medicaid will pay, so they can get fancier TVs so people like being there. They also have different pay structures depending on if you have insurance or not. They do what they can to get the most money, and IMO it isn't all that fair.

If you want to reform anything, reform the legal issues surrounding how people can sue doctors when their kid is born with a defect that isn't any fault of the doctor's for example, and reform the billing.
Part of the reform bill as well.

Quote:

But, do we really want the US government...the most wasteful, inefficient, expensive, heads up their ass, can't run a profitable business even if it was selling toilet paper, running our healthcare? Think of your last trip to the SOS. You probably waited a long time, dealt with a grumpy person, and were probably annoyed with the way the system worked.

I also fear that this opens a door for the government to invade our lives even more. Pretty soon because you have national healthcare forced on you, they can determine how many kids you will have, when you're not worth paying for anymore, do genetic screenings for health issues, etc. It's too much. Pretty soon we'll all wake up and realize we're now a socialist nation. I want the government interfering with my life as little as possible, and I want to make my own choices.
That is a stretch to go from making health care more affordable and available, to a complete melt down of the American system. But because people are frightened of this possibility (slight) they will forego something that could help change peoples lives, all of our lives for the better.
PeteC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Great Lakes 4x4. The largest offroad forum in the Midwest > General 4x4 Stuff > Politics, Government, or Religion Chat
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright 2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.
Copyright 2005 - 2012 Cracker Enterprises - Powered by Linux
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=
Page generated in 0.38183 seconds with 50 queries