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Old August 17th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #41
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To start I agree with you Obama's health care is a bad idea, abortion I feel is morally unthinkable. But there is the problem, we can't legislate morals. Some think its morally wrong for me to go in to the woods every fall to kill some deer and in the spring go after turkey. So they shouldn't hunt. I see no moral issue so I do. Some believe life starts the moment of conception others at birth. Some decisions we have to make based on our own morals and live with the consequences of them. Even if its means we choose not to have enough health coverage that's a choice one makes for them self.
countless laws on the books are in fact based in morals. perhaps not technically religious morals, but morals that most of us have in common. murder, rape, theft for example.

as for abortion. if the kooks that made our laws had a backbone, and if they were at all consistent the abortion issue would be a moot point.

it's illegal for you or I to abort a woman's fetus. (in fact in certain settings the charge is actually murder) but it's perfectly legal to have it ended by a medical professional in a medical setting.

yet ironically, while it is also illegal for your or I to kill that mother, it is also illegal for a doctor to attempt to do the same via assisted suicide, or homicide.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 08:33 AM   #42
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the GIANT freaking inefficiencies of any federally run governmental program.
To me that is a big issue that I think will cause many problems if their plan goes through.

What government run program works well?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #43
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To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them. Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
I agree with every word. You sound more like a Libertarian to me, but labels don't mean much. Your views, what ever you label them, are right on as always.

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Old August 17th, 2009, 01:37 PM   #44
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Are we swinging this to an abortion discussion? Im in.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:16 PM   #45
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Are we swinging this to an abortion discussion? Im in.
According to obamacare the issue on abortion is just that. We would in fact as tax payers be paying for abortions in this country and abroad into other countries as we do now. It will only be done on a larger scale and pushed even harder through "planned parenthood".
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Old August 17th, 2009, 10:12 PM   #46
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it may not end up in the bill.

BUT. once the elected aristocracy feel the adrenaline rush and power trip of controlling life and death it will become a reality. our government simply does not know when to stop. that is the problem with obamacare.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 10:30 PM   #47
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countless laws on the books are in fact based in morals. perhaps not technically religious morals, but morals that most of us have in common. murder, rape, theft for example.

as for abortion. if the kooks that made our laws had a backbone, and if they were at all consistent the abortion issue would be a moot point.

it's illegal for you or I to abort a woman's fetus. (in fact in certain settings the charge is actually murder) but it's perfectly legal to have it ended by a medical professional in a medical setting.

yet ironically, while it is also illegal for your or I to kill that mother, it is also illegal for a doctor to attempt to do the same via assisted suicide, or homicide.
Since you're a Christian, how do you feel about the book of Exodus saying that punishment for murder is capital punishment, but the punishment for terminating a fetus is payment of a fine?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #48
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Since you're a Christian, how do you feel about the book of Exodus saying that punishment for murder is capital punishment, but the punishment for terminating a fetus is payment of a fine?
From bondage to spiritual faith
From spiritual faith to great courage
From great courage to strength
From strength to liberty
From liberty to abundance
From abundance to leisure
From leisure to selfishness
From selfishness to complacency
From complacency to apathy Your right in this area
From apathy to dependency
From dependency to weakness
From weakness back to bondage
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:01 PM   #49
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From bondage to spiritual faith
From spiritual faith to great courage
From great courage to strength
From strength to liberty
From liberty to abundance
From abundance to leisure
From leisure to selfishness
From selfishness to complacency
From complacency to apathy Your right in this area
From apathy to dependency
From dependency to weakness
From weakness back to bondage
how about you Toes? God said that killing a fetus is a crime so heinous that it deserves payment of money to the father as punishment. It's not included with murder and the punishment isn't nearly as harsh as murder. Was God wrong?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:01 PM   #50
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Since you're a Christian, how do you feel about the book of Exodus saying that punishment for murder is capital punishment, but the punishment for terminating a fetus is payment of a fine?
What pray tell does the book of Exodus have to do with the discussion about moralistic laws being on our books?

I also thoroughly enjoy your distorted view of the Book of Exodus. The book in part is speaking towards Pharoh's laws that were handed down for one (as well as other dissertations - if you have a specific citation in mind that you have regurgitated from a favorite Biblebashing site, please feel free to cite the passage you dolt - I am not ordained, and have not memorized every detail of the Bible or Talmud, and specifically not the old testament)

However, since you're a tax and spend liberal, left leaning, big government loving, social service fan, what is your feeling on the astronomically low chance that Socialized Healthcare in the US will work when it has essentially failed everywhere else (at great expense) and given the Federal Government's tragically poor record at running any single organization or department with any level of efficiency even though they enjoy the lack of profit sapping overhead that results from paying market interest rates for their infrastructure, and being exempt from their own operational taxes as compared to the private sector?

And feel free to change the subject again, or go back to deflecting the discussion this thread was originally intended towards - I'm headed to bed, and may check back on the thread sometime later this week.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #51
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What pray tell does the book of Exodus have to do with the discussion about moralistic laws being on our books?

I also thoroughly enjoy your distorted view of the Book of Exodus. The book in part is speaking towards Pharoh's laws that were handed down for one (as well as other dissertations - if you have a specific citation in mind that you have regurgitated from a favorite Biblebashing site, please feel free to cite the passage you dolt - I am not ordained, and have not memorized every detail of the Bible or Talmud, and specifically not the old testament)

However, since you're a tax and spend liberal, left leaning, big government loving, social service fan, what is your feeling on the astronomically low chance that Socialized Healthcare in the US will work when it has essentially failed everywhere else (at great expense) and given the Federal Government's tragically poor record at running any single organization or department with any level of efficiency even though they enjoy the lack of profit sapping overhead that results from paying market interest rates for their infrastructure, and being exempt from their own operational taxes as compared to the private sector?

And feel free to change the subject again, or go back to deflecting the discussion this thread was originally intended towards - I'm headed to bed, and may check back on the thread sometime later this week.
What's wrong with my question? You were talking about moral laws and abortion. I assume that you believe that you derive your morals from the bible/god and that God is the divine author of the bible. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. There is very little in the bible about killing fetuses. What is listed in the bible shows it to be a much lesser crime than actual murder. I asked you how you felt about it or I suppose actually how you rationalize it in your own head. Just curious.

In terms of health care, I don't know. The system is messed up the way it is. Something has to change. I don't know if the public option is the best way or not. Apparently it's now off the table so I no longer am interested in even talking about it.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:16 PM   #52
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how about you Toes? God said that killing a fetus is a crime so heinous that it deserves payment of money to the father as punishment. It's not included with murder and the punishment isn't nearly as harsh as murder. Was God wrong?
Exodus 21:22
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely butthere is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows.23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take LIFE FOR LIFE.
Get it right before you post mike
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Old August 17th, 2009, 11:26 PM   #53
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Exodus 21:22
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely butthere is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the womans husband demands and the court allows.23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take LIFE FOR LIFE.
Get it right before you post mike
which bible are you getting that passage from, i've looked at a few already and haven't seen that one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.


American King James Version
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

English Revised Version
And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

King James Bible
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 12:02 AM   #54
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countless laws on the books are in fact based in morals. perhaps not technically religious morals, but morals that most of us have in common. murder, rape, theft for example.

as for abortion. if the kooks that made our laws had a backbone, and if they were at all consistent the abortion issue would be a moot point.

it's illegal for you or I to abort a woman's fetus. (in fact in certain settings the charge is actually murder) but it's perfectly legal to have it ended by a medical professional in a medical setting.

yet ironically, while it is also illegal for your or I to kill that mother, it is also illegal for a doctor to attempt to do the same via assisted suicide, or homicide.


I understand the dilemmas here one I find funny(correct me if in wrong) if a pregnant woman is murdered the killer is charged with 2 murders 1 for the women the second for the unborn child. I have to be honest a mixed bag on this one as I feel abortion is wrong but the question would be is where is the line on gov. if legally the child isn't a live till birth, then I see no legal right to ban abortion, but then a killer of a pregnant women should only be charge with one murder as the unborn child isn't legally a live. I see a big double standard in the law. Not advocating murder just using as example. Guess that would fall under being consistent on the part of law makers. If they actually would address it we could move on to other things as the only justified reason for abortion would be to save the mothers life, not because she is depressed.

Just remember to that not only is it illegal for you or I as a unlicensed surgeon to preform an abortion we could also not preform other surgeries legally either. So there is some sort of consistency there.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:42 AM   #55
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What's wrong with my question? You were talking about moral laws and abortion. I assume that you believe that you derive your morals from the bible/god and that God is the divine author of the bible. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. There is very little in the bible about killing fetuses. What is listed in the bible shows it to be a much lesser crime than actual murder. I asked you how you felt about it or I suppose actually how you rationalize it in your own head. Just curious.

In terms of health care, I don't know. The system is messed up the way it is. Something has to change. I don't know if the public option is the best way or not. Apparently it's now off the table so I no longer am interested in even talking about it.
The Bible is many things. In part it is the recanting of history. (A statement sure to make disbelievers roll their eyes or gasp in disbelief)

When God allows certain events to take place, that is not the same thing as sanctioning certain events. E.g. King David sleeping with Bathsheba and then sending her Husband to the front lines to die...

There are also very obvious and significant differences between Old and New Testament teachings and laws. My role on this planet is not to debate, or attempt to convince you, a hardened skeptic to humble yourself with an open mind. It quite simply is not my gift to evangelize.

As for this thread, I simply stated that there were many laws on the books that are moral-based, and used that one example as a fairly obvious, and what I felt strong correlation. I could have used the example that it is a felony to curse in front of a woman or a child in certain areas of this country...

Now, I'll go back to your statement about "the system being messed up and in need of a change". Says who?

Is health-care expensive? No doubt. It will only be more expensive if Federally run, and most certainly will not be less messed up...
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Old August 18th, 2009, 08:47 AM   #56
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Just remember to that not only is it illegal for you or I as a unlicensed surgeon to preform an abortion we could also not preform other surgeries legally either. So there is some sort of consistency there.
define surgery. I routinely carve splinters, and metal shavings from my skin. I've even gone so far as to carve out sebaceous cysts cause I don't have the time to deal with a doctor's appointment.

I've even removed loose teeth from my kids' mouths.

Am I advocating backyard clinics, and alley-way medical procedures? No. However, I do think we allow to be inserted Federal, State and even Local Regulation way, way, way too much in our lives.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:50 AM   #57
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how about you Toes? God said that killing a fetus is a crime so heinous that it deserves payment of money to the father as punishment. It's not included with murder and the punishment isn't nearly as harsh as murder. Was God wrong?
Yeah Mike your right, a fight between to men that results in an accident causing a miscarriage is the same as chopping your kid into kibble chunks because you want to...
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Old August 18th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #58
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define surgery. I routinely carve splinters, and metal shavings from my skin. I've even gone so far as to carve out sebaceous cysts cause I don't have the time to deal with a doctor's appointment.

I've even removed loose teeth from my kids' mouths.

Am I advocating backyard clinics, and alley-way medical procedures? No. However, I do think we allow to be inserted Federal, State and even Local Regulation way, way, way too much in our lives.
Your actually heading in the right direction. We, well at least us older not so complacent apathy filled dependant, people have the ability and the drive to do for ourselves. There are plenty of medical procedures that I would and have done that are considered doctor only procedures. We are becoming a nation of dependant slouches.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 10:08 AM   #59
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Your actually heading in the right direction. We, well at least us older not so complacent apathy filled dependant, people have the ability and the drive to do for ourselves. There are plenty of medical procedures that I would and have done that are considered doctor only procedures. We are becoming a nation of dependant slouches.
Only because mommy and daddy did it all for us, so the dependent slouches begin thier life of give me give.
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Old August 18th, 2009, 10:11 AM   #60
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which bible are you getting that passage from, i've looked at a few already and haven't seen that one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.


American King James Version
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

English Revised Version
And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

King James Bible
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
The NIV also if you were to read a little farther one way or another you would find were it says, eye for eye, bruise for bruise, life for life.
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