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Old August 15th, 2009, 12:29 PM   #21
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Again, the Bible-thumpers have taken the lead role in the , portraying the party as representing the views of the vocal minority religious right instead of conservatives. Exactly why I identify myself as a "conservative" rather than .

Nothing wrong with hospice care.

That said, Obamacare is still an unspeakably bad idea.
I am sorry Duffman but I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Bible thumpers, I will take that as a compliment, and yes Christians are for the most part conservative . And for christians taking the lead role in the republican party, no they have always been thier. Who do you think voted for GW Bush? Evangelical Christians.
Your ideals are conservative which is great, Would it be safe to say that your conservative ideals put limits to what goes on around you and how things affect you and your family? eg. laws put into place and how government governs society.
As to liberal ideals, sure anything goes who cares attitude, if its not in my backyard then it is ok.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 01:10 PM   #22
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I am sorry Duffman but I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Bible thumpers, I will take that as a compliment, and yes Christians are for the most part conservative . And for christians taking the lead role in the republican party, no they have always been thier. Who do you think voted for GW Bush? Evangelical Christians.
Your ideals are conservative which is great, Would it be safe to say that your conservative ideals put limits to what goes on around you and how things affect you and your family? eg. laws put into place and how government governs society.
As to liberal ideals, sure anything goes who cares attitude, if its not in my backyard then it is ok.
To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them. Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #23
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To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them.
Well put. And for the most part I agree with what you say here. I just also agree to social awareness and compassion.

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Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
Seems to me that is is the Republicans who are doing this more than the Democrats as of late. Look at the points you made above.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #24
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Well put. And for the most part I agree with what you say here. I just also agree to social awareness and compassion.



Seems to me that is is the Republicans who are doing this more than the Democrats as of late. Look at the points you made above.
Do you mean VOLUNTARY social awareness and compassion? Or IMPOSED, as what the are trying to do? Your president said it himself "spread the wealth"
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Old August 15th, 2009, 01:38 PM   #25
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To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them. Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
Ok, good points as far as government being small and doing what they were intending for, all for it.
As far as the issue on abortion, well thats murder, any way you look at it, it is murder. If a women does not want the child, ok, wait 9 months give it up for adoption. end of story. Gay marrage, nope it tears apart at the very fabric of the family and family values. and that is a whole new debate in itself.
And as for the rest of your points, right on, tolerence is the key.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 02:31 PM   #26
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Ok, good points as far as government being small and doing what they were intending for, all for it.
As far as the issue on abortion, well thats murder, any way you look at it, it is murder. If a women does not want the child, ok, wait 9 months give it up for adoption. end of story. Gay marrage, nope it tears apart at the very fabric of the family and family values. and that is a whole new debate in itself.
And as for the rest of your points, right on, tolerence is the key.
Tolerance is key, only when your ok with it?.... Bwwwaahahahah. please look up my prior posts on abortion, it is not "murder anyway you look at it"

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Old August 15th, 2009, 06:07 PM   #27
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they are also going to use it to justify killing all puppies and kittens with wood chipper.
sweet! id buy that on pay per view!
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Old August 16th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #28
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Ok, good points as far as government being small and doing what they were intending for, all for it.
As far as the issue on abortion, well thats murder, any way you look at it, it is murder. If a women does not want the child, ok, wait 9 months give it up for adoption. end of story. Gay marrage, nope it tears apart at the very fabric of the family and family values. and that is a whole new debate in itself.
And as for the rest of your points, right on, tolerence is the key.
EXACTLY my point.

Law of the land says abortion is not murder. Period. Now, I absolutely oppose the way that "law" was enacted, namely legislation via the judicial branch, a trademark move use to enact unpopular "social engineering" legislation that none of them wants to take the political risk to enact (abortion, school bussing, quota-driven "equal rights", etc...). But it is currently the law. If you don't believe in it, don't have any - but it is legal for others.

Now if you oppose it, don't blow up clinics, murder doctors, or attack/berate those who seek that legal remedy. Work to get the law changed, and remember that just because your particular value system says it's wrong doesn't make it so.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #29
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EXACTLY my point.

Law of the land says abortion is not murder. Period. Now, I absolutely oppose the way that "law" was enacted, namely legislation via the judicial branch, a trademark move use to enact unpopular "social engineering" legislation that none of them wants to take the political risk to enact (abortion, school bussing, quota-driven "equal rights", etc...). But it is currently the law. If you don't believe in it, don't have any - but it is legal for others.

Now if you oppose it, don't blow up clinics, murder doctors, or attack/berate those who seek that legal remedy. Work to get the law changed, and remember that just because your particular value system says it's wrong doesn't make it so.
did you read post 26? Thank you for saying what I could not, due to my non toleralce for those who have tolerance issues
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Old August 16th, 2009, 08:08 AM   #30
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Tolerance is key, only when your ok with it?.... Bwwwaahahahah. please look up my prior posts on abortion, it is not "murder anyway you look at it"
To take a life is murder, if you take that life inside the womb or outside the womb, it is still murder.
We do more in this country to protect puupies than we do to protect the unborn child.
I ask you which has more value?
The mother does not want the child, the abortion mill is ready to get your tax dollars to preform this act of murder
Abandoned puppies are found, hey people line up to recieve a puppy. Somebody mistreats a dog and people want em put in jail for thier cruelty towards a dog.
People have thier priorities mixed up up when you put a higher value on the life of an animal then one would do for the life of a baby, (human baby)

You can still tolerate the behavior of the actions of what people do, but you do not have to agree with what they do.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #31
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To me, "conservative" means keep the government out of my business. We tolerate a central government because we understand that it's the only practical way to provide defense and a very few other key central services.

Part of keeping government out of my business also means leaving many moral judgments to the individual. Abortion? A personal choice - if you don't like 'em don't have one. Gay marriage? No skin off my nose - let 'em get married, but then get rid of "domestic partner benefits", "palimony", and there will be no crap about churches that choose not to perform the ceremonies, because they have the right to choose as well.

Conservatism also means taking responsibility for oneself. Did you eat Mickey D burgers twice a day for 10 years and now weigh 400 pounds? It's not their fault. Smoked for 30 years and now have cancer? You played, and now you're gonna have to pay. No, the Marlboro Man didn't twist your arm. Decisions have consequences. Rode you scooter without a helmet or didn't wear your seatbelt and now have a closed head injury? Your choice. Conduct your life in a irresponsible or self-destructive manner and now lack health care? Too bad. Social Darwinism at work.

But the third key part of conservatism that the "Bible thumpers" (and I say it with love, as many friends of mine and people I respect would describe themselves as such) miss, is that conservatism means allowing others to make their own choices as well. Want to say a prayer in school? Fine. Don't want to? Again, fine (unless you voluntarily chose to attend a Jesuit school where it's the rules). BUT your choice does not apply to others, and you have to tolerate their choices. You don't have to agree with or even respect those choices, but you do have to keep it to yourself and tolerate them. Telling others how to live their lives is behavior - don't do it.
I could not agree more. That is why you were my write in in the last election.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #32
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To take a life is murder, if you take that life inside the womb or outside the womb, it is still murder.
We do more in this country to protect puupies than we do to protect the unborn child.
I ask you which has more value?
The mother does not want the child, the abortion mill is ready to get your tax dollars to preform this act of murder
Abandoned puppies are found, hey people line up to recieve a puppy. Somebody mistreats a dog and people want em put in jail for thier cruelty towards a dog.
People have thier priorities mixed up up when you put a higher value on the life of an animal then one would do for the life of a baby, (human baby)

You can still tolerate the behavior of the actions of what people do, but you do not have to agree with what they do.
I believe we're in agreement.

Personally, I don't like the idea of abortion and therefore don't have anything to do with it. If the next person decides to have one, it's currently legal.

I definitely agree that, collectively, our values are all screwed up where it comes to animals - especially dogs. They're dogs people. They're not "fur persons", your "babies", etc... While you may consider/use them as a substitute for children (freedom of choice - knock yourself out) the rest of us are not required to treat them as "children". They're simple-minded animals that, when properly trained, supervised, and taken care of make good pets and do a nice job flushing and retrieving birds.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 02:30 PM   #33
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I believe we're in agreement.

Personally, I don't like the idea of abortion and therefore don't have anything to do with it. If the next person decides to have one, it's currently legal.

I definitely agree that, collectively, our values are all screwed up where it comes to animals - especially dogs. They're dogs people. They're not "fur persons", your "babies", etc... While you may consider/use them as a substitute for children (freedom of choice - knock yourself out) the rest of us are not required to treat them as "children". They're simple-minded animals that, when properly trained, supervised, and taken care of make good pets and do a nice job flushing and retrieving birds.
Agreement yes, and you say you are not for abortion, great also, but given the opportuity you should speak out against it, if you have an opprotunity. Nothing wrong with speaking up for the unborn, they can't.
The animals- just that our pets or food
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Old August 16th, 2009, 03:51 PM   #34
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you say you are not for abortion, great also, but given the opportuity you should speak out against it, if you have an opprotunity.

Its funny how you dont want to be told what to do (Obamacare). For some reason you dont mind telling others what they should do.

That is why people that vote for national policies based on religious beliefs will always go wrong. Just because it is right for you does not mean it is good for the country as a whole.

Your religious beliefs are fine. I might even agree with some of them. Please dont think the rest of us need to follow your beliefs.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 04:21 PM   #35
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Its funny how you dont want to be told what to do (Obamacare). For some reason you dont mind telling others what they should do.

That is why people that vote for national policies based on religious beliefs will always go wrong. Just because it is right for you does not mean it is good for the country as a whole.

Your religious beliefs are fine. I might even agree with some of them. Please dont think the rest of us need to follow your beliefs.
The law says the to kill somebody( a living, breathing air person) it is murder, correct.
But it is not murder to take the life of a baby in the womb.
So the 40,000 some odd babies a year that are murdered, how does that affect the country as a whole?
The ones of us that are alive we can thank our mothers that she did not abort us or our siblings eh.
As for abortion being a religious thing, I believe it to be a moral thing.
Do you, yourself and wife have kids? I.m sure you would never think of such a thing. As a parent myself I could look at my children and think how could anybody do that. Abortion no, adoption yes
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Old August 16th, 2009, 06:36 PM   #36
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I do not want to take this thread off track into a abortion discussion.

My point was you dont want to be told what to do when it comes to health care.You(some religious people) want to be able to tell people want they should do when they dont think the same as you/them. I dont understand.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #37
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Old August 16th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #38
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So doing the right thing and taking care of our aging grandparents is out of the question?
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Old August 16th, 2009, 11:14 PM   #39
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The law says the to kill somebody( a living, breathing air person) it is murder, correct.
But it is not murder to take the life of a baby in the womb.
So the 40,000 some odd babies a year that are murdered, how does that affect the country as a whole?
The ones of us that are alive we can thank our mothers that she did not abort us or our siblings eh.
As for abortion being a religious thing, I believe it to be a moral thing.
Do you, yourself and wife have kids? I.m sure you would never think of such a thing. As a parent myself I could look at my children and think how could anybody do that. Abortion no, adoption yes
To start I agree with you Obama's health care is a bad idea, abortion I feel is morally unthinkable. But there is the problem, we can't legislate morals. Some think its morally wrong for me to go in to the woods every fall to kill some deer and in the spring go after turkey. So they shouldn't hunt. I see no moral issue so I do. Some believe life starts the moment of conception others at birth. Some decisions we have to make based on our own morals and live with the consequences of them. Even if its means we choose not to have enough health coverage that's a choice one makes for them self.
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Old August 16th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #40
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I'm curious why some folks still insist that healthcare should be a right. Nobody wants to die, but so few are able to face the inevitable that we all will. It's only a matter of how and when. For those willing to and/or able to pony up the billions to attempt to delay the inevitable - good for them.

Honestly, the vast majority of American's make poor health choices, and still want top notch health care, and now somehow think that it should be subsidized like Milk? Or even 'free' like public education?

Simple economics should tell anyone that has slept through a basic economics course in college that there will have to be shifts in the supply/demand of health-care service providers in order to make it happen. This isn't exactly like shifting production at an assembly plant.

And what disincentives will have to happen in order to try to get people that are currently specializing in very narrow focused fields to stop doing so, and accept longer hours, and lower pay of a general practioner vs. say a neuro surgeon?

My biggest issues with this legislation are as follows:
• it's a rush/hack job by any measure. Obama has stumped, and urged for a bill to hit his desk at virtually any cost all year long, without having any real first hand knowledge of his own of it. Further, without even caring if the legislators even read it before voting on it.
• See my first paragraph above. Couple it with the economics of it, and the GIANT freaking inefficiencies of any federally run governmental program. With the Federal track record of the Post office nearly always running deficits, $5,500 toilets ordered by the Pentagon, and huge abuses of power by the IRS, do we really want a Federal Health Czar making/setting/enforcing policy? Do we really want it codified that the policies established by said Czar are not subject to judicial review? (it was in one form of the bill) If it's such a splendid system they are proposing, why on earth are the folks that represent us, and trying to shove this bullshit down our throats not forgoing their own plans and standing front row center to sign up for this horse shit?
• for what it's worth I also do not think that the Feds should have bailed out the Banks/Financials, or usurped the GM Board of Director's job and fired a sitting CEO, or bullied/pressured secured debt holders into allowing their interests to be subrogated by the unsecured interests of others. people cried about the UAW pensions, but somehow were able to easily ignore that the thousands of us who were not UAW that had 401 plans may have had significant shares/bonds wiped out as well.

people have raised the issue of religion and other ideologies in this thread, and used the words "win at all cost" - in my mind that's exactly what the left has done to get in their position of power from the very beginning of the campaign 3 years ago, and that's what they're trying to do now with their bullying - first with the financials/banks/stockmarket/GM/Chrysler - now with the healthcare, and soon with the environment cap - n - trade bullshit legislation.

they make anyone out who may simply disagree as a misfit, rebel, hick, mob-mentality, baby seal killing, gas-guzzling, racist, unhinged religious nut-case.
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