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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:36 AM   #21
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yes true you would not read that and the liberals would not be so bold to put that in the bill they would phrase it differently, something more appealing, something that makes you feel good and warm and fuzzy all over and that feeling would be the panel brain washing you to think of a way out because the cost that the elderly is creating on the people that are waiting for more hand outs and can't get em because it cost to much keeping the old folks alive, so lets give em a pill and call it a day, on with the next.....
The government can't run medicare, the schools, themselves how would anybody in their right mind think they could run health care. we have proof, look at other countries that are doing it right now, huge wait times and people dieing before thier time because of waiting.
Thier has to be a better way, but having government run health care....UMMM

Wow, just Wow. There is nothing that can be written that would get you to not believe this.

You sir, have jumped the shark.

1+1=2

But, when Palin (or any other Conservative talking head) tells you 1+1=3 this is what you will believe and no amount of facts will change your mind.


It is right there in front of you, I have linked to it, Bruce has posted it verbatim and you will still not concede that the so called "death panels" do not exist in the legislation. Just amazing. And you call us blind sheep?

The truth, sir, is out there. Yet you refuse to see.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:40 AM   #22
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What? WTF are you talking about?

You are trying to use my support of wheeling as a way to get me to shut up about my stance on a political issue? You think the conservative view of health care reform is a GLFWDA stance? Where do you come off?

BTW, If GLFWDA board members ever told me what to think about a political, religious moral, or any other issues I would be ripping the stickers off my jeep, formally and publicly denouncing the organization and have the logo removed from under my name immediatly.
GLFWDA does not force thier members to shut thier mouths in the political or religious arena. It is not part of thier mandate and not part of the cause.
I agree.

See Signature.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:43 AM   #23
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So, you still obviously refuse to educate yourself by reading the bill and other information available on line directly from Congress. Instead you simply hear what you want to hear and what fits your agenda. Sad.
So when the problems of socialized health care are shown to you and you ignore the facts. That's what being open minded? Just pointing both sides are guilty of this. There is good and bad in the reform bill. Some just think the bad outweighs the good.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:50 AM   #24
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So when the problems of socialized health care are shown to you and you ignore the facts. That's what being open minded? Just pointing both sides are guilty of this. There is good and bad in the reform bill. Some just think the bad outweighs the good.

I do not ignore facts, I relish them.

I have relatives that live in countries with national helath care programs. My relatives tend to live well into thier 90's if not longer. And all of them seem to be plenty happy with the level of care they recieve.

What I ignore is the presumption that a few horror stories are indicative of a whole concept. If I did not I would hate every conservative or Republican I ever met. And that is just not the case.

What I do have a problem with is people saying things are in the reform bill that are simply not there. And others believe this BS without taking the time to read it for themselves.

Read carefully: I am trying to get people to look at the real facts for themselves. It is readily available. I don't think that I have once said that I support this reform bill in the discussions I have been a prt of on the website. I have simply pointed out the fallacies in peoples statements of fact.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:00 AM   #25
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Aren't we all, (those of us that are still working), paying for this already? If someone walks into a hospital, they can't be refused if I understand the printed message at the front desk of the emergency room.
The health care system isn't broken, it's become corrupt. Insurance companies have found ways to dictate to us and the doctors that treat us. If one stands back and looks at it, the insurance companies have become a middle man so to speak. I am talking about both the health insurance and the doctors liability insurance companies. The system does need repair, no doubt about it. I would rather see adjustments made to the system we have to reduce the waste and corruption. I also would rather a REAL doctor decide that a procedure should be done and covered, rather than an insurance company.
I would imagine the insurance companies have doctors working for them that decide these things. I also have noticed that when companies hire professional people to work for them, they favor the company. Think about it. It happens in all companies. If they don't the companies would fail.
It does all come down to money.
It really is a shame that a country such as this, has this problem. It should of had a great health care system for all Americans back 50 years ago.
OK I'm done ranting.
Ranting maybe, but very well put. Like you say fix what we have, it would be less expensive than to do a complete overhaul of our health care system.
It is obvious that the opposing view points here do not understand or are not willing to see what goes on in other countries with government run health care. It is all about saving money instead of the health and care of the patient. We need to look at how medicare and medicade are being run and then ask ourselves do we want the government to take over all health care in this country, NO
Our system needs fixing not a complete overhaul. If your jeep needed a set of brakes and new exhaust would you do a complete rebuild? I think not, unless you are not paying for it or have a ton of money and feel like wasting it
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:03 AM   #26
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I do not ignore facts, I relish them.

I have relatives that live in countries with national helath care programs. My relatives tend to live well into thier 90's if not longer. And all of them seem to be plenty happy with the level of care they recieve.

What I ignore is the presumption that a few horror stories are indicative of a whole concept. If I did not I would hate every conservative or Republican I ever met. And that is just not the case.

What I do have a problem with is people saying things are in the reform bill that are simply not there. And others believe this BS without taking the time to read it for themselves.

Read carefully: I am trying to get people to look at the real facts for themselves. It is readily available. I don't think that I have once said that I support this reform bill in the discussions I have been a prt of on the website. I have simply pointed out the fallacies in peoples statements of fact.
Fact. health care requirs "approved insurance" of induviduls face fines. I have a problem there. Its not gov. job to tell me what I need.

From Canada its 2004 but proves point
August 6, 2004

Canadian Health System Continues Long Waits

Canada's government-run health care system is being weighed and found wanting. It leaves patients in longer and longer lines for poorer and poorer care.

Citing a recent study by the Fraser Institute, the Seattle Times recently said "more and more Canadians are awakening . . . from a nightmare. . . . After years of government control, the [Canadian] medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars." Yet its real costs come in human suffering.

The Fraser report concluded that Canada's promise of universal access to health care runs up against the reality of lengthy waits for care and treatment using lower quality medical equipment.
http://www.hlc.org/html/august0604hi.html

Just facts just because people you know are happy and think its great does that mean everyone feels that way?
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:14 AM   #27
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Wow, just Wow. There is nothing that can be written that would get you to not believe this.

You sir, have jumped the shark.

1+1=2

But, when Palin (or any other Conservative talking head) tells you 1+1=3 this is what you will believe and no amount of facts will change your mind.


It is right there in front of you, I have linked to it, Bruce has posted it verbatim and you will still not concede that the so called "death panels" do not exist in the legislation. Just amazing. And you call us blind sheep?

The truth, sir, is out there. Yet you refuse to see.
you are correct 1+1 =2 . No sir you are reading what you see and that is it. If you were wearing a blind fold and were walking toward a cliff and I told you don.t go that way there is a cliff over there, would you tell me thats ok I know were I am going or would listen to the truth? See one thing I do have on my side is the truth and if this does pass or does not pass I will still have the truth on my side.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:26 AM   #28
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you are correct 1+1 =2 . No sir you are reading what you see and that is it. If you were wearing a blind fold and were walking toward a cliff and I told you don.t go that way there is a cliff over there, would you tell me thats ok I know were I am going or would listen to the truth? See one thing I do have on my side is the truth and if this does pass or does not pass I will still have the truth on my side.
Heres some truth for you. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32364264...-more_politics
Since people here seem to like to post other peoples opinions rather than thier own.

More to come.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #29
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Fact. health care requirs "approved insurance" of induviduls face fines. I have a problem there. Its not gov. job to tell me what I need.

From Canada its 2004 but proves point
August 6, 2004

Canadian Health System Continues Long Waits

Canada's government-run health care system is being weighed and found wanting. It leaves patients in longer and longer lines for poorer and poorer care.

Citing a recent study by the Fraser Institute, the Seattle Times recently said "more and more Canadians are awakening . . . from a nightmare. . . . After years of government control, the [Canadian] medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars." Yet its real costs come in human suffering.

The Fraser report concluded that Canada's promise of universal access to health care runs up against the reality of lengthy waits for care and treatment using lower quality medical equipment.
http://www.hlc.org/html/august0604hi.html

Just facts just because people you know are happy and think its great does that mean everyone feels that way?

Not to downplay your source, but it is 5 years old. Not that I am familiar with the in and outs of the Canadian system, but there are other articles that point out how things have improved and how most of the problems have to do with the rural nature of most of the country. People in the more urban areas like Toronto, Montreal Calgary, etc. have less issues. But people in the Northwest territories, northern rural Alberta have less than adequate access to medical help, a condition that existed before the program went into affect.

A good read, IMO, about the Canadian system: http://www.ourfuture.org/node/21313

2 things from this quick glance at your source. The present bill does not outlaw private insurance. It is designed to co-exist with private insurance.
Also, rural access to medical care is addressed in such a way to improve accesibility ro those living aweay from population centers.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:53 AM   #30
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Not to downplay your source, but it is 5 years old. Not that I am familiar with the in and outs of the Canadian system, but there are other articles that point out how things have improved and how most of the problems have to do with the rural nature of most of the country. People in the more urban areas like Toronto, Montreal Calgary, etc. have less issues. But people in the Northwest territories, northern rural Alberta have less than adequate access to medical help, a condition that existed before the program went into affect.

A good read, IMO, about the Canadian system: http://www.ourfuture.org/node/21313

2 things from this quick glance at your source. The present bill does not outlaw private insurance. It is designed to co-exist with private insurance.
Also, rural access to medical care is addressed in such a way to improve accesibility ro those living aweay from population centers.

I'll have to read that found a 2008 study by Fraser still long wait but they said "Total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, fell from 18.3 weeks in 2007 to 17.3 weeks in 2008."

Here's what they found Among the provinces, "Ontario achieved the shortest total wait in 2008, 13.3 weeks, with British Columbia (17.0 weeks), and Manitoba (17.2 weeks), next shortest. Saskatchewan exhibited the longest total wait at 28.8 weeks; the next longest waits were found in Nova Scotia (27.6 weeks) and Newfoundland & Labrador (24.4 weeks)."
http://www.fraseramerica.org/commerc...urn2008_US.pdf
Its just fact you increase demand with out increase in supply two things happen 1. people will wait some dying while waiting 2. Cost will go up unless supply is rationed. Simple economics.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:56 AM   #31
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Fact. health care requirs "approved insurance" of induviduls face fines. I have a problem there. Its not gov. job to tell me what I need...............................
You are partially correct on this. It is not a case of fines, it is a case of a tax, prorated for that period of the calendar year that a person is not covered by some type of public or private insurance. In fact, starting on page 167 there ia an explanation of how it would work. Go check it out.

There are exceptions and exemptions.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #32
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you are correct 1+1 =2 . No sir you are reading what you see and that is it. If you were wearing a blind fold and were walking toward a cliff and I told you don.t go that way there is a cliff over there, would you tell me thats ok I know were I am going or would listen to the truth? See one thing I do have on my side is the truth and if this does pass or does not pass I will still have the truth on my side.

I am reading what is there and reporting what I read, basing my opinion on what is written in black and white.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Where is the "Death Panels" mentioned in the bill, in black and white?

Where is your "truth"?
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:03 AM   #33
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I'll have to read that found a 2008 study by Fraser still long wait but they said "Total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, fell from 18.3 weeks in 2007 to 17.3 weeks in 2008."

Here's what they found Among the provinces, "Ontario achieved the shortest total wait in 2008, 13.3 weeks, with British Columbia (17.0 weeks), and Manitoba (17.2 weeks), next shortest. Saskatchewan exhibited the longest total wait at 28.8 weeks; the next longest waits were found in Nova Scotia (27.6 weeks) and Newfoundland & Labrador (24.4 weeks)."
http://www.fraseramerica.org/commerc...urn2008_US.pdf
Its just fact you increase demand with out increase in supply two things happen 1. people will wait some dying while waiting 2. Cost will go up unless supply is rationed. Simple economics.

That report actaully supports the link I posted. The more rural the more wait times. That happens no matter what type of health plan you have.

And the use of weeks needs to be understood as well. The report you are using take the average of 12 specialties across all of the provences.

I have no doubt you would see similar waits for certain specialties here for similar health plans.

There are provisions to help increase supply (medical professionals) in the plan. And, part of that is to help those in areas that are presently under staffed with practitioners. (both rural and urban)

Cost could go down through a variety of programs implemented through this program. Tort reform, cost control, competition.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:09 AM   #34
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Heres some truth for you. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32364264...-more_politics
Since people here seem to like to post other peoples opinions rather than thier own.

More to come.

You mean to say, David O'Steen, executive director of the National Right to Life Committee supports this part of the bill? No way? He must be some kind of closet liberal, socialist.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 10:43 AM   #35
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I'll have to read that found a 2008 study by Fraser still long wait but they said "Total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, fell from 18.3 weeks in 2007 to 17.3 weeks in 2008."

Here's what they found Among the provinces, "Ontario achieved the shortest total wait in 2008, 13.3 weeks, with British Columbia (17.0 weeks), and Manitoba (17.2 weeks), next shortest. Saskatchewan exhibited the longest total wait at 28.8 weeks; the next longest waits were found in Nova Scotia (27.6 weeks) and Newfoundland & Labrador (24.4 weeks)."
http://www.fraseramerica.org/commerc...urn2008_US.pdf
Its just fact you increase demand with out increase in supply two things happen 1. people will wait some dying while waiting 2. Cost will go up unless supply is rationed. Simple economics.

I'm trying to find the article I read the other day but the jist of it was that comparisions to the Canadan and British are not really valid because what is beening proposed here is not much like them. What is being proposed is more like what they have in France and the Netherlands and they do not have as much trouble with long waits and most people there are happy with their system.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 11:12 AM   #36
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I'm trying to find the article I read the other day but the jist of it was that comparisions to the Canadan and British are not really valid because what is beening proposed here is not much like them. What is being proposed is more like what they have in France and the Netherlands and they do not have as much trouble with long waits and most people there are happy with their system.

Things aren't so great in France.....

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...zUwODcwWj.html
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Old August 11th, 2009, 11:24 AM   #37
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Aren't we all, (those of us that are still working), paying for this already? If someone walks into a hospital, they can't be refused if I understand the printed message at the front desk of the emergency room.
The health care system isn't broken, it's become corrupt. Insurance companies have found ways to dictate to us and the doctors that treat us. If one stands back and looks at it, the insurance companies have become a middle man so to speak. I am talking about both the health insurance and the doctors liability insurance companies. The system does need repair, no doubt about it. I would rather see adjustments made to the system we have to reduce the waste and corruption. I also would rather a REAL doctor decide that a procedure should be done and covered, rather than an insurance company.
I would imagine the insurance companies have doctors working for them that decide these things. I also have noticed that when companies hire professional people to work for them, they favor the company. Think about it. It happens in all companies. If they don't the companies would fail.
It does all come down to money.
It really is a shame that a country such as this, has this problem. It should of had a great health care system for all Americans back 50 years ago.
OK I'm done ranting.
Well put.

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I do not ignore facts, I relish them.

I have relatives that live in countries with national helath care programs. My relatives tend to live well into thier 90's if not longer. And all of them seem to be plenty happy with the level of care they recieve.

What I ignore is the presumption that a few horror stories are indicative of a whole concept. If I did not I would hate every conservative or Republican I ever met. And that is just not the case.

What I do have a problem with is people saying things are in the reform bill that are simply not there. And others believe this BS without taking the time to read it for themselves.

Read carefully: I am trying to get people to look at the real facts for themselves. It is readily available. I don't think that I have once said that I support this reform bill in the discussions I have been a prt of on the website. I have simply pointed out the fallacies in peoples statements of fact.
My problem with the government is they think they can think for us. Write Levin sometime with a question and see what you get back. It won't be an answer to your question. They think we are not capable of doing what you ask, "reading it ourselves" and making an educated choice. They don't listen to us, whom they work for and it pisses me off.

If they could run the government properly with A LOT less wasteful spending I would be a LITTLE more supportive of this. The medical industry needs reform, not us paying everything for everyone. Did you know some doctors will give you a discount on an office visit if you pay cash? If I had to point a finger it would easily be in the insurance industry's direction. My wife is in the medical "business" along with my sister-in-law (she can really tell you more, she works in medical billing).

If this plan was so great, why don't the government workers and politicians have to go on it?

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I'm trying to find the article I read the other day but the jist of it was that comparisions to the Canadan and British are not really valid because what is beening proposed here is not much like them. What is being proposed is more like what they have in France and the Netherlands and they do not have as much trouble with long waits and most people there are happy with their system.
What if we don't want it but we still get to pay for everyone else's? I know several people at work that don't have any through work and are quite happy to do so. Or worse yet, every company is going to drop insurance like a hot sack of crap and let the government handle it all. If you have insurance through work and you think its bad to deal with now, wait. It will get worse. Much worse.

We were discussing welfare at work the other day. If I remember correctly, they get dental but yet some of them run around letting their teeth fall out yet we are still paying for it? Just think, the new plan will be that times millions.

I would support industry reform not a takeover though. I am guessing what will happen is, doctors will start bilking the government (don't worry, we will still pay for it) and/or all the good doctors will leave for somewhere else.

I think a large problem is the drug companies too. I asked my doctor why a medication I was on was so expensive here ($110 a month) while it about half that elsewhere. He told me we, the US, get to pay for a very large percentage of of the drug research. Tell me your not sick of those stupid ads and all the disclaimers on TV? Or even in magazines and newspapers? The publisher doesn't give those ads away. No more ads. A good doctor should be informed of what is on the market and what you NEED to help you in life. Next should be the doctors who f-up. Done. Over. Finished. Welcome to the big world. The doctors need some responsiblilty for what they do. There is a difference between some 60-something that just wants to bang his secretary and a 30-something couple that wants to have at least 1 child of their own. I understand doctors get lied to by patients to get perscrips too but they shouldn't be so quick to write it up either like some are. I know I could call my old doctor and tell him how I felt and he would just call the perscrip in for me. t was nice. No appontment and a lot less BS but it shouldn't have happened.

Wow. Sorry for the long rant.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 12:09 PM   #38
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Things aren't so great in France.....

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...zUwODcwWj.html
Interesting. So the big complaint is that it costs too much, and yet they pay less than we do.

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Old August 11th, 2009, 01:47 PM   #39
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I hope we are not trying to model after the French system


A system like that would never work here. Doctors receive 1/3 the payment they receive here. All our talented Doctors would leave. With receiving 1/3 the payment, higher malpractice premiums and paying for medical school themselves, there is no reason to be a Doctor here.

Here is a quick search from Wiki
Brain/doctor:$450,00-$650,000
Anesthesiology: $306,964
Surgery, general: $255,438
Obstetrics/gynecology: $233,061
Psychiatry: $163,144
Internal medicine: $155,530
Pediatrics/adolescent medicine: $152,690
Family practice (without obstetrics): $150,267

So cut those salaries in at least in half and most Dr's would only make 75K to 125K range. Specialists obviously more. Why have 150K in school debt and 8 years into education for that?


Also, how about this (from article)

About 90% of the population subscribes to supplemental private health-care plans.

Obviously if 90% of the people are electing to buy more coverage, what they are being taxed for does not work!

Throughout the article the French are coming up with ways to charge more and provide less.
This system would be abused just like every other social program.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 03:08 PM   #40
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I want the same system that our congress(persons) and senators have. Or, I want them to have the same one that we get. Better yet, just give me the amount of their expense account each year and I will buy my own health care, my wife's, and my two sons for the rest of my life.
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