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Old June 24th, 2006, 02:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by jamiesann
clinton didnt manage the budget he (to his credit) just stood back and rode the wave of prosperity, he did not one thing i can think of (and challenge you to name one thing ) he did to promote the economic boom of the mid to late 1990s.
I think you already named it... he did nothing and let it happen.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 02:14 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cmujeeper
YAY, TEAM American To the Rescue!!! Goooo Team America!!!



The tax rate is nice since now my long term gains are at a 15% rate but don't you think that it would be a good idea to be taxed and since Bush has range up the largest budget deficit the US has ever seen? You cant have it both ways of spend billions of money and also have lower taxes. Pretty simple principle of don't spend more then you bring in.


The Outstanding Public Debt as of 24 Jun 2006 at 02:33:02 PM GMT is:
$ 8 , 3 9 7 , 0 7 4 , 4 2 6 , 9 1 0 . 8 7

The estimated population of the United States is 298,972,051
so each citizen's share of this debt is $28,086.49.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$1.74 billion per day since September 30, 2005!

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
lol $28,086 per person who gives a fukc , where do you get your facts and the basis for outrage for that. 1st of all people on well fare get about 15-16grand per year for doing nothing and not paying any taxes at all (other than sales tax on cigs and alcohol and getting their nails and huur did). It costs more than $45,000 PER YEAR PER WELL FARE RECIPIANT in administrative costs to manage the well fare system. Thats big government for you ... you are not outraged by that?

2nd if you new economics at all you would know our deficit does not matter so long as our GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT increases at a greater rate than the the debt. Thats very basic, thats how you start a business, you take out a loan, make money with said loan, pay your self, and pay back creditors and remain in business.

3rd are you outraged by BONO type hollywood fags who want the world bank (ie america) to forgive 3rd world debt. I wouldnt mind if they would adopt a domocratic capilatilist govenrment, but africa is rich as hell in resources there is no reason for that continent to be such a shit hole ... except for all the poor leadership. WAAAY i am a bleeding heart, forgive there debt makes me feel all warm and fuzzy so in my head i can think i am a better person .... and making them self sufficient with regards to the economy well THATS JUST FORCING AMERICAN VALUES AND BORDERING ON ECONOMIC COLONIALISM waaaaaa thats wrong i love black people more than you do your racist, blah blah blah GO DIE OF CHRONIC DIAHREA in the african bush if you belive that, and let the jackals and hyenas eat your disgusting liberal corpse.

Lastly i do not blindly support bush. His even half hearted attempt to seem nice to illegals and even suggest manesty as an even remote possibility has made me insanely mad. Read my responses to illegals, there is almost nothing i hate more than gun control and support for illegals, any one who supports those is a political enemy of mine.

Last edited by jamiesann; June 24th, 2006 at 02:16 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 02:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cmujeeper


So lets get way in debt way over our head to have all our fun military toys. I'm sure my old highschool would love new books for 100 years or so with the money that was spent in one hour paying for the Iraq war.

Take care of your homeland first.
again you need more of a busines focused view. I dont know what school district you went to but almost everyschool district in michigan spends high 9grand or ten grand per student from the state .... many spend 4-5 grand extra.

Most classrooms are 25 kids many are closer to 30 kids

Most schools are 8-3.

per classroom there is a budget of approximately $300,000

subtract 45,000-65,000 for a established teacher and that leaves you with 235,000.

schools by me are cinder blocks, nothing fancy a cinderblock classroom cant cost more than $30,000 and thats financed over 30-60 years or more so its almost nothing.

WHERE THE HELL DOES THAT EXTRA $235 GRAND PER YEAR GO. Good grief CMUJEEPER you cant call out people as be lemmings when you just believe everything the fucking teachers union tv commericals tell you....

this is why charter schools are so great, and even in instances when they dont get one single tax dollar for a small small % of what the publicly run union schools pay all the kids blossom.

On the news i saw a "lottery" for a charter school in southwest detroit in mexican town. You should have seen the parents, they were so nervous you could tell they were about to barf, if their kid got in the school he was set for life basically .... when their numbers got called you would have thought they won the michigan state lottery or powerball they were physically shaking/trembling and crying.

Hmmmm thats very strange i never heard of any one doing that for detroit public schools and they spend something like 12,000 per student ... and its a diseased shit hole acroos the entire system.

That doesnt outrage you either i bet. based on your posts i would wager you dont like charter schools cause it means a cushy union teaching job may be in jepardy, and you buy the TV commericals hook line and sinker that "it costs jobs and is STEALING MONEY" yes teachers commericals say stealing money as if they are entitled to OUR TAX MONEY AUTOMATICALLY FOR LIFE.

You clearly hate the mililtary and military spending but i have never heard any general, cabinet memeber or anyone say "cuts in military spending" WAS STEALING.

vouchers = bad

Status quo = good if its union. If you disagree you dont love kids and are gambling their future away *cue hallmark commerical and come old bird teacher with a scowl face lecturing me how she needs 300,000 grand per year to run a 3rd grade class room* BARF !!!

Last edited by jamiesann; June 24th, 2006 at 02:43 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 03:18 PM   #44
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After reading that rant I think you have some issues with public schools. Did you not get the education you thought you deserved because you lived in Grosse Point?? So basically you think the schools just waste all the money the government gives them so screw them?

Do you know how debt is financed? The US issues bonds. There have been a few times when we had no idea how we were going to pay off the bonds at maturity and had to have a congressional mid night approval to issue the limit on new bonds just to pay off the ones due. Do you realize that 75% or more of our debt is owned by foreign countries. The debt is the risk free rate that we use in finance since the US has never defaulted. If we continue to run this budget deficit and we happen to do default in the future can you imagine what will happen when everyone (foreign countires) start to cash in there bonds?

Don't fear though since the Bush run US only has 2 years left and he'll be gone and someone new can fix this mess or so the collective country can only hope. The previous statement is based on Bush's approval rating.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 05:16 PM   #45
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Where can I go to contribute money to PNAC?
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Old June 24th, 2006, 06:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by cmujeeper
After reading that rant I think you have some issues with public schools. Did you not get the education you thought you deserved because you lived in Grosse Point?? So basically you think the schools just waste all the money the government gives them so screw them?

Do you know how debt is financed? The US issues bonds. There have been a few times when we had no idea how we were going to pay off the bonds at maturity and had to have a congressional mid night approval to issue the limit on new bonds just to pay off the ones due. Do you realize that 75% or more of our debt is owned by foreign countries. The debt is the risk free rate that we use in finance since the US has never defaulted. If we continue to run this budget deficit and we happen to do default in the future can you imagine what will happen when everyone (foreign countires) start to cash in there bonds?

Don't fear though since the Bush run US only has 2 years left and he'll be gone and someone new can fix this mess or so the collective country can only hope. The previous statement is based on Bush's approval rating.
Nope i got a good education, i was in AP classes got good enough act and sat scores to get into ivy leauge schools or any school in america basically (my grade point avg was lowish though .... barely over 3.0, i took challenging classes and suffer from ADD, but i also worked ALLOT all through highschool and played sports also. so 3.1 GPA isnt bad). ZERO blow off classes i took education very seriously, even senior year no blow off stuff, i tested out of stuff for college and saved my parents money (and me since i paid for more than 1/2 of college closer to 2/3).

The schools here are great, both of our highschools finished in the top 100 public highschools in the whole nation a few years ago (in a survey of the top 20,000 public highschools by USA today). I think if i remember correctly GP south was in the mid 30s nationally and my highschool GP north was something like 65 th in the nation. I dont think i could ask for much more than that. THE VALUE is what i was questioning, and the casual your school needs books attitude and as if your school would have new books if it was not for a war. Thats what i was challenging. The fact that public schools are bloated and inefficent dinosaurs, doesnt bother the , its a way to "GIVE" away jobs, and reward their puppets in the unions.

my main point was if you even only took introductory macro economics you would likely study what i mentioned (i studied it in macro) about the GNP outpacing the debt. Its a economic fact. and the $28,000 per person could be paid off in no time with the money we waste on ineficent public schools, that arent accountable in hardly any way at all, and always seem to be asking for more and more.

If public schools were run as effeciently as charter schools and private schools, we could totally pay off the debt in jsut a few years, then the surplus after that i can only imagine what kinda stuff we could invest in that would help the economy.

Last edited by jamiesann; June 24th, 2006 at 06:42 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 07:20 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by brewmenn
We're the only country that has used nukes against people..
To end a war, not start one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
some people think thats exactly what we're doing, just not with nukes.
We don't take over countries and exploit their resources or we would be getting gas for a buck a gallon from Iraq.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
I have, but it was in the 1980's and '90's. I don't think we were hated quite as much back them... I wonder why?
Because Ronald Reagen had the shit scared out of everybody with our huge military build up.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn
I'm not suggesting that we sould dismantle our military or anything crazy like that, but I don't think that threatening to go to war with any of our enemys that even think about developing nuclear weapons in the answer either.
Your right, just let everybody have nukes and see what happens. We do offer protection and aid in place of them devoloping weapons. It's like policing: would you rather have the police show up after your car was broken into, or have them patrol the area and hassle the dirtbags to keep it from happening.

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Originally Posted by brewmenn
And what pisses me of even more are the people that seem suprized by the mess we've gotten ourselves into in Iraq. If you had asked me what I thought the situation would be like 3 years after we invaded I would have described exactly what is going on now, with our troops dieing as a result on car bombings and attacks of that nature, a government that can barely stand on it's own 2 feet much less run a country, and warring factions continuing to battle with each other.
Right, it's no surprise. But allowing a genicide to continue isn't right either.
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Old June 24th, 2006, 07:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Renegade II
To end a war, not start one.




We don't take over countries and exploit their resources or we would be getting gas for a buck a gallon from Iraq.




Because Ronald Reagen had the shit scared out of everybody with our huge military build up.



Your right, just let everybody have nukes and see what happens. We do offer protection and aid in place of them devoloping weapons. It's like policing: would you rather have the police show up after your car was broken into, or have them patrol the area and hassle the dirtbags to keep it from happening.



Right, it's no surprise. But allowing a genicide to continue isn't right either.

x292392318248735r12389512395125987`234987234
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Old June 24th, 2006, 07:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by cmujeeper
I didn't realize there was such a welfare problem in Frankenmuth. I guess you learn something new everyday.
Frankenmuth is in Saginaw County, actually it's only about 10 miles away from the city and Buena Vista where welfare abuse runs rampant. You know, the place where we've had our last 20+ homicides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cmujeeper
Also, I am from downriver and know the hardships of poor people (which are called blue color workers by most of the world) so don't think I had my college paid for. Since I had to put myself through college I couldn't afford those rose colored glasses that you think I view the world through.
I lived in Saginaw and supported myself until after college when I started into my career, so I need no lessons in poor or blue collar. And I worked full time to pay for school while I was attending. My reward was getting a well paying career and being able to move out of Saginaw's high crime area.

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Originally Posted by cmujeeper
So lets get way in debt way over our head to have all our fun military toys. I'm sure my old highschool would love new books for 100 years or so with the money that was spent in one hour paying for the Iraq war.
Or just charge Iraq $ or oil for our services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmujeeper
Take care of your homeland first.
I agree, close the borders

Edit: I love Saginaw County and even though I could live anywhere else I stay here, how's that throw ya

Last edited by Renegade II; June 24th, 2006 at 07:53 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Renegade II
To end a war, not start one.
Which is exactly the excuss they'd use, since most of those groups have been at war with each other since the begining of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II

We don't take over countries and exploit their resources or we would be getting gas for a buck a gallon from Iraq.
Again, thats what many people are saying is exactly what we did, but not so we can get gas cheaper, but so the oil companys can make larger profits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II
Because Ronald Reagen had the shit scared out of everybody with our huge military build up.
fear only works so long, then people get over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II

Your right, just let everybody have nukes and see what happens. We do offer protection and aid in place of them devoloping weapons. It's like policing: would you rather have the police show up after your car was broken into, or have them patrol the area and hassle the dirtbags to keep it from happening.
I don't want everyone to have them, but I just don't think we can prevent a country from getting them if thier determinded to. I see it more like gun control. Once they're out there it's almost impossible to control who has them, and you can never get rid of them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade II

Right, it's no surprise. But allowing a genicide to continue isn't right either.
No, but we allowed it to happen in Iraq in 1988 and did nothing. We allowed it to happen in East Timor through out much of the 1980's and 90's. We're allowing it to happen in Sudan. And we did it to the indians here. So what made this one so important that we had to do something? And wasn't it about 15 years to late?
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Old June 25th, 2006, 01:32 PM   #51
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Thank GOD he only has a few years left. I can only hope he hasn't completely ruined us by then!!

P.S. Most of the people on GL4x4 are bush's sheep so you better bring your flame suit when you post articles like that. It's funny when grown men can't think for themselves.
You should be thanking god that the country isnt in a severe recession or a depression after the financial impact of 9/11. You probably arent old enough to remember the stock market situation after it resumed trading. Also the national economy is fine. The Michigan economy has taken a hit because of the issues with GM, Delphi, and Ford. You cant blame the president for issues in the local economy caused by the big three. Well.. you could blame him, but then you would be stupid.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 01:47 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jamiesann
again you need more of a busines focused view. I dont know what school district you went to but almost everyschool district in michigan spends high 9grand or ten grand per student from the state .... many spend 4-5 grand extra.
I work in Hartland and we spend about 7K per student. But hey you are only off by about two to 8 thousand dollars with your estimation.

Quote:
Most schools are 8-3.
Most schools support a variety of extra curricular programs that happen before 8 or after 3. At my elementary school students are there from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM. Scouts, sports, etc are often there until 7 or 8 at night.

Quote:
per classroom there is a budget of approximately $300,000

subtract 45,000-65,000 for a established teacher and that leaves you with 235,000.

schools by me are cinder blocks, nothing fancy a cinderblock classroom cant cost more than $30,000 and thats financed over 30-60 years or more so its almost nothing.

WHERE THE HELL DOES THAT EXTRA $235 GRAND PER YEAR GO. Good grief
Heat, air, electricity, phones, lawyers, administrators, coaches, health care, food service, busses, nurses, books, computers, projectors, pencils, glue, scissors, paper, security, maintenance, etc.

Quote:
this is why charter schools are so great, and even in instances when they dont get one single tax dollar for a small small % of what the publicly run union schools pay all the kids blossom.

On the news i saw a "lottery" for a charter school in southwest detroit in mexican town. You should have seen the parents, they were so nervous you could tell they were about to barf, if their kid got in the school he was set for life basically .... when their numbers got called you would have thought they won the michigan state lottery or powerball they were physically shaking/trembling and crying.

Hmmmm thats very strange i never heard of any one doing that for detroit public schools and they spend something like 12,000 per student ... and its a diseased shit hole acroos the entire system.

That doesnt outrage you either i bet. based on your posts i would wager you dont like charter schools cause it means a cushy union teaching job may be in jepardy, and you buy the TV commericals hook line and sinker that "it costs jobs and is STEALING MONEY" yes teachers commericals say stealing money as if they are entitled to OUR TAX MONEY AUTOMATICALLY FOR LIFE.
This is where we agree, sort of. I wouldn't mind seeing a privatized education system. Teachers could negotiate thier own contracts and the best schools would serve the highest paying customer.

I do however strongly disgree about me having a "cushy union teaching job" but that is your opinion and I'm sure you spent a few years teaching in a public school so your opinion is based on experience.

What do you do for a living jamiesann?
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Old June 25th, 2006, 05:29 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by brewmenn
Which is exactly the excuss they'd use, since most of those groups have been at war with each other since the begining of time.
No that's not what they are saying, or the reason they want them. Iran has come straight out and said they will destroy Israel. Correct, they have been fighting since the beginning of time and when one gets the upper hand they will take over the assets and resources of the other country and expand their arsenal to destroy all the infidels. Is that ok with you, infidel?

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Originally Posted by brewmenn
Again, thats what many people are saying is exactly what we did, but not so we can get gas cheaper, but so the oil companys can make larger profits.
But actually that's not what we did. The oil companies are screwing us on the same old Saudi oil that we have been getting all along. I hate the raping we are taking at the pumps, but that's free market economics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
fear only works so long, then people get over it.
Sanctions don't work, but fear was working just fine. Ask Libyan leader Momar Qaddafi about it. He had no fear of us, but now he has respect for us and what we can do. Why is Al-Qiada hiding? Fear. Why was Saddam Hussein hiding in a hole in the ground? Fear. What keeps people out of bad neighborhoods? Fear. It works, especially when you have the will and ability to follow through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
I don't want everyone to have them, but I just don't think we can prevent a country from getting them if thier determinded to. I see it more like gun control. Once they're out there it's almost impossible to control who has them, and you can never get rid of them all.
Your right on the gun control analogy, once they are out there it's almost impossible to control who has them, and you can never get rid of them all, but we don't just give up and let criminals and the mentally ill walk into a store and buy guns. So why just give up make it easy for terrorist nations to get nukes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmenn
No, but we allowed it to happen in Iraq in 1988 and did nothing. We allowed it to happen in East Timor through out much of the 1980's and 90's. We're allowing it to happen in Sudan. And we did it to the indians here. So what made this one so important that we had to do something? And wasn't it about 15 years to late?
It's too bad we sat by and let all that happen (during both political parties tenures), but we didn't set out on this one or Afganistan because of the stated humanitarian/terrorist reasons (oil was never stated as a reason). Just because you do something wrong in the past should you continue that behavior?


*We can go on about this forever, I respect that we have differing opinions. We have to agree to disagree on this matter. Unlike many other countries where we would just hunt one another down an kill each other for our opinion, we are allowed to disagree in this country.

I'm done, this thread has gone on for too long.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 05:52 PM   #54
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You should be thanking god that the country isnt in a severe recession or a depression after the financial impact of 9/11. You probably arent old enough to remember the stock market situation after it resumed trading. Also the national economy is fine. The Michigan economy has taken a hit because of the issues with GM, Delphi, and Ford. You cant blame the president for issues in the local economy caused by the big three. Well.. you could blame him, but then you would be stupid.

I'm still unsure who the attacker on 9/11 really was.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 07:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Renegade II
*We can go on about this forever, I respect that we have differing opinions. We have to agree to disagree on this matter. Unlike many other countries where we would just hunt one another down an kill each other for our opinion, we are allowed to disagree in this country.

I'm done, this thread has gone on for too long.

actually, we probably agree more than we disagree. I was mostly just making up arguments because I felt like arguing with someone on the internet, it's mostly just recreational arguing, and lately I've found the conservitives more interesting to argue against than the liberals.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 07:27 PM   #56
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Old June 25th, 2006, 08:02 PM   #57
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I have a question for all you free speakers..
Would you say that anyone in this country can work and support themselves? Or it is only a chosen few that can make a living in this country and enjoy the freedoms? Can you get in your car and drive anyplace in the U.S.A? Or are you checked from town to town or state by state? I was surprised when we went to Mexico a few years back that when they change State lines or what ever there call down there , We seen guys with Ossies standing at what would be State lines here in the States?? and they were also at the Air Ports etc.

I guess my point is most don't relise how great we do have it compared to the rest of the world. As far as blaming any one Pres. they have to go through the goverment befor they can even wipe there bottoms so if your upset is it not WE the People that you should be upset with? because WE the people are the ones putting them in office and letting the Spoiled Politics of this country get away with what we disaprove of??
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Old June 25th, 2006, 08:16 PM   #58
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I have a question for all you free speakers..
Would you say that anyone in this country can work and support themselves? Or it is only a chosen few that can make a living in this country and enjoy the freedoms? Can you get in your car and drive anyplace in the U.S.A? Or are you checked from town to town or state by state? I was surprised when we went to Mexico a few years back that when they change State lines or what ever there call down there , We seen guys with Ossies standing at what would be State lines here in the States?? and they were also at the Air Ports etc.

I guess my point is most don't relise how great we do have it compared to the rest of the world. As far as blaming any one Pres. they have to go through the goverment befor they can even wipe there bottoms so if your upset is it not WE the People that you should be upset with? because WE the people are the ones putting them in office and letting the Spoiled Politics of this country get away with what we disaprove of??
My vote didn't count this time but hopefully it will in the next set of elections. We were a blue state so atleast I got a little satisfaction knowing that the majority of my state voted for the same person as I did.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 08:20 PM   #59
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My vote didn't count this time but hopefully it will in the next set of elections. We were a blue state so atleast I got a little satisfaction knowing that the majority of my state voted for the same person as I did.
Because the majority of your states population is in flint/saginaw/detroit. They are also largely minorities and UAW workers.

AGAIN, when people work for a living you see the color change from blue to red very quickly.
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Old June 25th, 2006, 08:35 PM   #60
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Because the majority of your states population is in flint/saginaw/detroit. They are also largely minorities and UAW workers.

AGAIN, when people work for a living you see the color change from blue to red very quickly.
Well in this case I guess the UAW workers and minorites as well as myself cared enough to vote.
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