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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:19 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreezy View Post
Tell me Im not the only one who is confused by this statement.
I think the key to this is the next sentence. Cross country constitutes going off the 4 digit road-hills/bogs, mudhole go arounds etc. By this, you're good staying off the obvious wetland/hill designations til you come to a scarred up pit area, then you have to turn back. Fun, not.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:19 AM   #82
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Am I over looking the manistee routes?

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hmnf/pages/Recreation/mvum.htm
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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:26 AM   #83
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? They'e just not established yet. How can they enforce something without a framework to go on, even among themselves? I realize they are probably privy to this in secret, but if so, where's this period of "education" as in the article?
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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:34 AM   #84
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Ok, I have a copy of the ticket.
The Ranger - Tom Walter wrote up the location as:
"Cedar Creek area of linderman rd" That would lead me to believe (from the wording) that the tickets were issued on the map of the 50" and under trails of cedar creek.

The photos and the information from the ticketed people are showing they were on FR5912 which is clearly indicated as a legal road according to this map that is still posted on the USFS website. FR5912 also branches off to the east which appears to be a legal place to be (but it dead ends) in the location the tickets were received. Wonder if there are any GPS coordinates available from the location of the actual ticket.

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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:45 AM   #85
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yes curbdog has that info from the next day when he went out i believe. But how do u read the cordinants on the map above?

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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:03 PM   #86
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This is some more info on the area

Last edited by GREASYHANDS; May 31st, 2010 at 10:16 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:27 PM   #87
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I know this isn't DNR but this kind of stuff makes me want to join the Conservation Officer Academy or become a DNR officer just so I can know the "rules."
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:29 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Ok.

Mr. Russell before, I'm not sure why, but his name is extremely familiar.

The charge on the ticket is:
36 CFR 261.56 "Use of jeep 4x4 off of designated road"



The actual law reads as:

36 CFR 261.56: Operating a motor vehicle, ATV or ORV off road or off trail, into, across, or over forestland,
wetlands, streams or beaches
. Vehicles may park within 50 feet from the traveled portion of
a road, which is open to vehicle traffic.



I find this very weird that they were written for 261.56 because they were clearly on a "road" or "former road" as defined by the USFS:
Road:
"Road means a road wholly or partly within or adjacent to and serving part of the National Forest System and
which is included in the Forest Development Road System Plan. This includes any hardsurfaced, gravel, or dirt
road, fire lane, abandoned railway, Joggingroad, or travel route cleared to a width greaterthan 40 inches,
established for the purpose of vehicle travel"

Former Road:
"Former road or trail means a road or trail that at one time was established and maintainedfor publicuse but is
no longer open or maintainedfor vehicles or foot travel. Such roads or trails may still be recognizedby the
remaining depressions left by tires, or foot traffic, howeverthe travel corridor
will be revegetatedwith woody trees, shrubs or grasses and such vegetation appears to be upright, undisturbed, and in an untrammeled condition"




They should have been written for this, if the officer actually deemed it illegal:

36 CFR 261.54(e) or 36 CFR 261.55(a): Operating a motor vehicle, ATV or ORV on a forest road, trail, or former road or trail, which
has physical barriers in place, such as: gates, berm of earth, trench, posts, logs, rocks, or
natural vegetation which blocks or impedes passage.



.
I think the wording of "established for the purpose of vehicle travel" could be used against the situation. Why was that trail originally created?
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:33 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedbuggy View Post
I think the wording of "established for the purpose of vehicle travel" could be used against the situation. Why was that trail originally created?
It's on the "LEGAL" map for Cedar Creek. If you read the info in the next post after mine with the map you will find that the PDF states

"ANY ROADS/TRAILS NOT ON THIS MAP ARE NOT OPEN FOR VEHICLE TRAFFIC"


The maps don't include illegal routes.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:38 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexin' XJ View Post
I know this isn't DNR but this kind of stuff makes me want to join the Conservation Officer Academy or become a DNR officer just so I can know the "rules."
Between the DNR, USFS and different stories I've gotten right out their mouths at the station itself, I don't think they themselves know them either.
They can't even get together on the "education period".
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:41 PM   #91
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If it was DNR I know someone that could help with it but its not.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 01:44 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upchuck View Post
Between the DNR, USFS and different stories I've gotten right out their mouths at the station itself, I don't think they themselves know them either.
They can't even get together on the "education period".
That is why I put rules in "".
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Old July 1st, 2009, 06:01 PM   #93
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I just drove out there today, and looked at the maps at the trailhead, and where we turned.. it was a legal two track. Also there is tons and tons of trash out there along the way, and also tons of garbage at the teenage hangout spot by the end of Sweeter Rd, but yet we go out and tread lightly and they want to ticket half of us, we weren't throwing out trash, we weren't drinking, we weren't ripping up the trails, but yet they want to write out illigetimate tickets. I think this whole thing is bullshit, and i am sorry to say this and don't usually have a problem with rangers.. But for writting false tickets I think They Should GET FUCKED. Also if it was me that got wrongfully accused I would be sueing the shit out of them, and i would'nt give up until i could afford a new rig. I will back anyone up on this and will give anyone support that needs it. I wish i would have got a ticket, i think it would have been like hitting the jackpot. Thats like getting framed for robbing a bank just because you used the damn ATM machine.

If they wan't to make money out there and make those trails a better place then they need to start going out there on weekends and setup a stakeout for all the underage drinking, driving and littering. I mean hey they could issue lots of DUI's, MIP's and Littering tickets, and if they make a stakeout i am sure they could issue other tickets as well, but no they would rather try to hit up just a bunch of tread lightly guys getting together on a Saturday night going for a ride.

I am sorry but i no longer have any respect for any of these so called Forest Rangers anymore.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 06:54 PM   #94
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sorry I missed this run, and even more sorry you all got tickets for what I also believe to be legal trail from looking at the maps. I support you guys and I will donate to atterney fees. I am ready to go trail riding again but where can I go that is legal? Mr. Ranger answer that.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:45 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe&jeep View Post
sorry I missed this run, and even more sorry you all got tickets for what I also believe to be legal trail from looking at the maps. I support you guys and I will donate to atterney fees. I am ready to go trail riding again but where can I go that is legal? Mr. Ranger answer that.
legal??? who knows, but I do know the pvt parks here in mi and anyplace down south you wont get bothered.......................after this whole deal I will take my $$$ out of state to wheel
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:26 PM   #96
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Somebody should set up a Paypal account for people to donate money to for hiring a defense attorney. Also, when you hire an attorney, hire one who routinely practices in FEDERAL COURT. Maybe somebody that the UFWDA used in the Rubicon case or a local attorney who will work "with" that same attorney.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:26 PM   #97
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legal??? who knows, but I do know the pvt parks here in mi and anyplace down south you wont get bothered.......................after this whole deal I will take my $$$ out of state to wheel
i dont blame you for wheeling elsewhere. unfortunately thats what the mi dnr and usfs want. they want you to leave! they see you as the problem in "their" forest. anyone that thinks it was just dumb luck that got those tickets issued is mistaken. you guys were set up! the ranger told ya about the trail for a reason. if you post anything on any website about a trail ride your crazy. jmho, good luck


i seldom agree with hombre, but his last post is spot on! im sure many of us would make small donations, they add up quick.

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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:41 PM   #98
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i dont blame you for wheeling elsewhere. unfortunately thats what the mi dnr and usfs want. they want you to leave! they see you as the problem in "their" forest. anyone that thinks it was just dumb luck that got those tickets issued is mistaken. you guys were set up! the ranger told ya about the trail for a reason. if you post anything on any website about a trail ride your crazy. jmho, good luck


i seldom agree with hombre, but his last post is spot on! im sure many of us would make small donations, they add up quick.
I would love to wheel here, but I am at my wits end with these people, you cant win. These same trails they were ticketed on are the damn trails I helped clean with the 2 trackers the last 5 yrs. Matter of fact I had a ranger in my group this yr, thought he was a real nice guy, but now think he was 2 faced.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:53 PM   #99
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.......These same trails they were ticketed on are the damn trails I helped clean with the 2 trackers the last 5 yrs........
THIS is what is newsworthy. Seriously. AND you did it with government help, government knowledge and consent. This is the most newsworthy portion of this whole thing.

BTW. If the government has more of a case than we are aware of, it will come out during discovery, before the trial. That's what courts are for. Deciding facts of law. I've heard enough of one side to say that there appears to be some real issues with this case and it should go to court.
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Old July 2nd, 2009, 09:55 AM   #100
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well all I can say is thank you agian from everyone I am sure curbdog greasyhands and atomic would say the samething the reason us four dont say much on here is we dont want the USFS to know what we are doing Hell they knew right where we were gonna be so they read everything we write on this site so the less they know the better off the four of us are if anyone has ideas please send curbdog atomic greasyhands or myself a message

Thanks RON
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