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Old June 30th, 2009, 06:39 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre View Post
I can't believe you called.
He's not going to talk to you about the case. Have the Grand Rapids Press and Muskegon Chronicle call him. Or have this guy look into it:
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/about_us/staff_bios/henry_erb


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Old June 30th, 2009, 06:59 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail_Fanatic View Post
While the Defendants get their case together, both this thread and teh original trail ride thread should VANISH. Nothing like telling the opposition your every thought and move before you make it.

I've deleted my posts.


Just my $.02
I totally disagree.

Do you leave a thread like this showing "the opposition" that it's going to be fought (which they already know) and most importantly show thousands of people what is going on, or do you delete threads like this so your average 4x4 enthusiast never realizes what is happening right now in Michigan?
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Old June 30th, 2009, 08:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I totally disagree.

Do you leave a thread like this showing "the opposition" that it's going to be fought (which they already know) and most importantly show thousands of people what is going on, or do you delete threads like this so your average 4x4 enthusiast never realizes what is happening right now in Michigan?

While I certainly respect Pat's opinion I agree with CC. I think that it would be beneficial to let everyone in the community know what is happening and that some/alot of tickets should never have been written in the first place.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 08:34 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
I totally disagree.

Do you leave a thread like this showing "the opposition" that it's going to be fought (which they already know) and most importantly show thousands of people what is going on, or do you delete threads like this so your average 4x4 enthusiast never realizes what is happening right now in Michigan?
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While I certainly respect Pat's opinion I agree with CC. I think that it would be beneficial to let everyone in the community know what is happening and that some/a lot of tickets should never have been written in the first place.

I didn't say we couldn't let people know that questionable citations have been issued and will be brought to court for resolution.

I also think the ideas about taking up a collection for attorney fees (not fines) and having a TON of enthusiasts show at the courtroom for the hearing have a LOT of merit. These could only be coordinated by internet.

However, there are many posts in here that would show the Plaintiff where to focus their efforts to try to rebut any point made by the defense.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 08:39 AM   #65
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However, there are many posts in here that would show the Plaintiff where to focus their efforts to try to rebut any point made by the defense.
Yes, That is true, but I think you have to weigh public exposure vs the Forest Service acting in the same static way that they would probably normally do.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:00 AM   #66
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I will check my USFS maps later...
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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:28 AM   #67
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I agree with Pat about limiting our comments in here about our defense on how to fight these tickets.
If the rangers that issued the tickets are watching this thread, they can then be prepared for the questions that will be asked of them.

If you can catch them off-guard in court, and they are not able to answer the questions, then their case will not hold water.

They may go out and post closed signs on the trail, and take pictures to show that the trai is closed, and then use those against you, if they know we want more pictures of the trail.
Any pictures you take, need to have the date stamp on them imbeded by the camera.

But for the other items mentioned above, nothing wrong with posting that info.

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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:35 AM   #68
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Well jeez thanks bud for agreeing with Pat yet offering up more ideas for them.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 10:31 AM   #69
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Well jeez thanks bud for agreeing with Pat yet offering up more ideas for them.
He's trying to help
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Old June 30th, 2009, 07:38 PM   #70
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I talked to a guy at the Muskegon Chronicle and he is going to bring the idea of putting this issue in the paper. He will be contacting me some time this weekend.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:10 AM   #71
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I talked to a guy at the Muskegon Chronicle and he is going to bring the idea of putting this issue in the paper. He will be contacting me some time this weekend.
There is nothing wrong with getting public opinion on your side either.

Show them what we do, via using the UFWDA video that we created a couple of years ago.
If you need a copy, I will upload it to utube for you to view.
I also posted more info on the GLFWDA site from one of the guys involved in the win on the Rubicon ticket.
Not much help though really.

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Old July 1st, 2009, 05:44 AM   #72
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Date stamps on camera photos don't hold much water as the dates are programmable. Are there some things that should be kept private? Yes. But the over all picture needs to be out there for the public to see. It may also deter a potential trespasser once he realizes the amount of hassle his mud slinging does. Education is a good thing.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 05:48 AM   #73
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So is there going to be a group that goes to the court hearing with you? I might be willing to drive my jeep there.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 05:48 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
Ok.

Tom is out of the office for "a couple days" and the District Ranger out of that office is Les Russell. I have a vm in for him, and I'll update when I receive a call back. Secretary said he was in, and asked what I was inquiring about. It then went straight to Mr. Russell's voicemail. I've talked to Mr. Russell before, I'm not sure why, but his name is extremely familiar.

I believe Les Russell is the name of "District Ranger" Back in the day, when District Ranger first joined, somebody pulled his information. That name is familiar to me also, I think for that reason.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 06:02 AM   #75
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I believe Les Russell is the name of "District Ranger" Back in the day, when District Ranger first joined, somebody pulled his information. That name is familiar to me also, I think for that reason.
Yeah that's him, http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/member.php?u=5405
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Old July 1st, 2009, 06:09 AM   #76
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he was post 49 in the initial thread, he warned them in his post.
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The Cedar Creek Trail system is for 50" or less ATV's. Not full sized street rigs. An OHV sticker is required. Unlelss you plan to ride the "county" road system most of the other user created tracks and hill climbs are not legal to ride. Just so you know.
this was in the Night Ride 6/27/2009 At Cedar Creek thread

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Please review the following:

The Manistee National Forest maintains a system of roads and trails designed for specific types of vehicles. We offer single-track trails designed for street-legal motorcycles. We offer trails designated open to unlicensed off-road vehicles 50 inches wide or less. We operate a public road system designated open to street legal vehicles, allowing for public access to the general forest area.
The Manistee National Forest does not operate a trail system for full-sized off road vehicles. Cross-country travel by all motorized vehicle is prohibited on Manistee National Forest lands. All hill climbs, wetland/mud bogs, open sand areas and mud hole go-around areas are considered cross county travel and are off limits to motor vehicle travel. It is also illegal to damage the Forest Service road system. Ruts and holes prevent travel by two-wheel drive vehicles or cause vehicles to detour around areas that have been damaged, causing further impacts to the ground.
In order to maintain the opportunity for continued vehicle access to the general forest area, it is our hope that visitors to the Manistee National Forest will respect these guidelines. Visitors are welcome to use the appropriate road or trail designated open for their type of vehicle. Unauthorized use or damage to the National Forest lands may be punished by arrest, fine or seizure of the vehicle. The forest will be targeting areas that have been damaged from vehicles to encourage public cooperation.
Remember, it is always the driver’s responsibility to know where they can legally operate a motorized vehicle on National Forest lands.
If you need more information, please contact our district offices.

Leslie E. Russell
District Ranger
Baldwin/White Cloud Ranger District
Huron-Manistee National Forest Phone: 231-745-4631

from the White Cloud Michigan 6/7/09 Thread

Last edited by Shotgun; July 1st, 2009 at 06:12 AM.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:28 AM   #77
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Quote:
We operate a public road system designated open to street legal vehicles, allowing for public access to the general forest area.
The Manistee National Forest does not operate a trail system for full-sized off road vehicles. Cross-country travel by all motorized vehicle is prohibited on Manistee National Forest lands.
Tell me Im not the only one who is confused by this statement.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:36 AM   #78
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hell ya i'm drivin my truck down there. I think who ever goes should to, if they can
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:24 AM   #79
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Tell me Im not the only one who is confused by this statement.
He is making reference that the only legal place for 50" or wider ORV's (trucks jeeps etc...) is on the "county road system" also known as "seasonal roads" and that they all have to have a SOS license, in such there are no "trails" for you biggie.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:54 AM   #80
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But FR5912 isn't part of the trail system, is it? Isn't that a seasonal road that goes all the way to Linderman rd?
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