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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:47 AM   #41
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:01 AM   #42
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I can tell you we weren't anymore than 50ft from the main trail
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:03 AM   #43
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I can tell you we weren't anymore than 50ft from the main trail
Were you parked?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:04 AM   #44
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36 CFR 261.54(e) or 36 CFR 261.55(a): Operating a motor vehicle, ATV or ORV on a forest road, trail, or former road or trail, which
has physical barriers in place, such as: gates, berm of earth, trench, posts, logs, rocks, or
natural vegetation which blocks or impedes passage.



Not sure what implications (if any) that has, but the citations were clearly wrong in the nature they were written.
Technically that's not right either, because the road has no physical barriers in place. There are no berms, markings or gates anywhere in cedar creek from what I can recall. That would mean the only thing illegal would be the hill climbs that are clearly not roads.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:27 AM   #45
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I am watching this thread, and have seen an email from Pat Bower of GL4WDA.
We are asking Carla Boucher for her assistance as well on this.

A couple of years ago, there was a ticket that was issued on the Rubicon trail for being off trail as well.
This ticket was fought, and they won as well.

Need to have your facts straight.
Keep the emotions out of the discussion with the judge.

Get pictures of the trail/road where you were parked.
Have pictures of the trail head.
Take the USFS map with you to court.
Is the road/trail marked with trail markers or a road name at the intersection? Either way, take a good picture of this intersection from different directions showing this.

You will have to show that any reasonable person could not know or understand that the road/trail was closed or open.
I think there is stuff on the USFS web page that mentions some of the same info about easy to recognize trails being open or closed.

Moderators.
If you want to keep this info away from the officer that will have to appear in court, then please delete this post, and send it to the individuals involved.

Thanks

Todd Ockert
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:47 PM   #46
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It may also help to shoot a video of the way you got onto that trail verbally noting intersections so they can be correlated on the USFS published map. Once you get to each intersection focus the camera on a GPS showing your exact location. The GPS should be one that shows the road you're on and adjacent roads for visual reference.

This method could show that a "reasonable person" would have no idea that he is doing anything wrong and is consciensiously trying to follow the law.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:14 PM   #47
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I always welcome them to come up, as we were wheeling legally, it is just unfortunate that they say they are there to help and prevent damaged to the Forrest, yet with knowing the meeting place and being invited to ride along, so to speak to ensure we are riding legitimate, they decline the invitation to meet up at the beginning to perhaps go over certain rules or routes for the evening, instead set up a type of sting operation out in the middle of the woods.
Then they didn't wait to talk to anybody that what the hell they were talking about about were we were and when asked themselves where we were they could not answer no could they even tell us which trail to fellow out, as all they could say was "if it looks legal then it is ok" , or " just stay on Liderman"

Then as per the article, the one year education period is for when the new trail map comes out this fall. Now they are just cracking down on the punks that go out there and tear everything up out in the Forrest. Which I'm glad they are doing as it ruins it for us, as you can see. For an extreme example... On the news you hear of a murder, but you don't hear about how 10 people were saved that day. This is what we have here, a stereotype that were fighting against as 4x4 wheelers, it has been a long process in the making, which is way this new map is going to be so good for us to help break down the places to ride. As well as these tickets which were received, will give us a way to get it front of the judge and let them see that something needs to be done.

Again about these tickets or the situation, this is why see clubs like the Two Trackers doing clean ups, to show were not just punks in the woods tear stuff up but people who care about the woods as well. Then have the Great Lakes Four wheel Drive Association who are there to help get the trails open and to help educate people as well as to avoid situation like this, another great organization that can use all the support it can get as they help you weather no it or not. Then as well as the national organization of the United 4 Wheel Drive Association, as it is just not our state that deals with type of thing. So they help fight for everyone as perhaps you want to go to Tennessee to ride around the back woods?, well they help to keep all the areas open to enjoy. I mean c'mon, it's like saying hey you can access the lake and swim, but you can't take the boat out on it.

It's a long fight, but we're making progress, we have set backs but we keep moving forward. So please lend your support where ever you can.

http://www.twotrackers.org/
http://www.treadlightly.org/
http://www.glfwda.org/index.php
http://www.ufwda.org/
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #48
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Again about these tickets or the situation, this is why see clubs like the Two Trackers doing clean ups, to show were not just punks in the woods tear stuff up but people who care about the woods as well.
I find it ironic that the two trackers do trail cleanings on this same route that the rangers wrote the tickets.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:31 PM   #49
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I find it ironic that the two trackers do trail cleanings on this same route that the rangers wrote the tickets.
Its a very clean trail, so for the two trackers.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:54 PM   #50
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Ok.

Tom Walter (officer #104012) works out of the baldwin office. Anybody can call him up and inquire about this little incident. 231-745-4631. Tom is at extension 3105.

Tom is out of the office for "a couple days" and the District Ranger out of that office is Les Russell. I have a vm in for him, and I'll update when I receive a call back. Secretary said he was in, and asked what I was inquiring about. It then went straight to Mr. Russell's voicemail. I've talked to Mr. Russell before, I'm not sure why, but his name is extremely familiar...................
I can't believe you called.
He's not going to talk to you about the case. Have the Grand Rapids Press and Muskegon Chronicle call him. Or have this guy look into it:
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/about_us/staff_bios/henry_erb


Sorry, Les. It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:55 PM   #51
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He's not going to talk to you about the case. Have the Grand Rapids Press and Muskegon Chronicle call him. Or have this guy look into it:
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/about_us/staff_bios/henry_erb


Sorry, Les. It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand.
I'm sure he would make a comment on the road being legal or illegal. That is all I need to know.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 04:29 PM   #52
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CC,
Remember Erin's poker run back in '07? I think Les Russel was involved in that too.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #53
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CC,
Remember Erin's poker run back in '07? I think Les Russel was involved in that too.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #54
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You can always try another means; a senator or rep. You never know. I really don't beleive but they claim they work for us.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:39 PM   #55
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well a couple of my buddies emailed WZZM and WOODTV 8 about this to try and get the public involed who knows maybe they will be on our side or not
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #56
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I live on sweeter road and I knew somthing was up. I was thinking they found a bunch of hippie lettuce in the woods.

Fight the Fight and good luck...
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:37 PM   #57
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You guys act like it was a big secret with the DNR. He posted in your thread about the trip, it was clear as day that they were watching and gonna be waiting.

But I agree with everybody, with those pics I would of never questioned those trails, they look legit to me to be able to drive on.
That's just it- according to the maps that someone had printed out listed above, we were at least trying to stay on the designated seasonal road so we didn't have to spend 1/2 the night sitting along the trail waiting for them to figure out which law they could try to issue tickets for. The problem is that there are about 20 legitimate mapped trails and about 1000 non marked ones according to the maps but none of them are posted except the ATV/bike trails.
This was probably the best organized and almost leagal trail ride I've ever been involved in. I was shocked when I heard the sirens sound.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 11:42 PM   #58
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While the Defendants get their case together, both this thread and the original trail ride thread should VANISH. Nothing like telling the opposition your every thought and move before you make it.

I've deleted my posts.


Just my $.02

Last edited by Trail_Fanatic; June 30th, 2009 at 08:25 AM.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 05:32 AM   #59
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I say we get a ton of people to show up to the district court and wait outside the day that you guys go to fight the tickets.

This just sucks!!!!

Best of luck to you guys in fighting this. And let us all know if there is anything we can all do if you do have to pay. With all the people on this site if we put a dollar each in a paypal account we could cover it now problem.

Best of luck
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Old June 30th, 2009, 05:55 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre View Post
I can't believe you called.
He's not going to talk to you about the case. Have the Grand Rapids Press and Muskegon Chronicle call him. Or have this guy look into it:
http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/about_us/staff_bios/henry_erb


Sorry, Les. It's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand.
I have a friend that works for the Muskegon Chronicle I might be able to get this in the paper. PM me if you guys would like that.
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