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Old June 28th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #21
Battaglia34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak View Post
your GPS wont show most of the 2tracks or forest roads, mine was the same way.
My GPS showed the road then it showed where it ended it also showed where the road started back up we started at the Ceder Creek Trail Head Or Linderman Rd. whatever you wanna call it then it showed me Sweeter Rd where we came out at
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by SANDVIPR View Post
My take on the whole thing is that someone on this site is one of the DNR or local sherrif and they were monitoring the origional thread. It looked like they were waiting for us. I personally think that they would have stopped us even if the leaders of the group wouldn't have made that wrong turn by mistake.
There are many DNR officers on this site, and I highly doubt they would do that, especially if its legal to be there. I'm guessing they just ran into a very over-zealous DNR officer.

Can you guys post up the officers name?
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:07 PM   #23
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what time did this all happen? Seem weird to me that they were out there late into the night without know something was going down. Unless locals call it in or something.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:17 PM   #24
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what time did this all happen? Seem weird to me that they were out there late into the night without know something was going down. Unless locals call it in or something.
I got a text at about 10 from one of the guys on the trail ride and about midnight I got a call when they were on the way home.
I am guessing they were only out there because of the trail ride thread here...

Thanks "District Ranger".
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Freak View Post

Thanks "District Ranger".
Seriously, that type of thing isn't really necessary.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:22 PM   #26
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BTW, do everybody a huge favor here, and DON'T pay that ticket, and don't accept any sort of reduced charge for this. Hopefully it will not be dismissed when you fight it, and hopefully this will go to a judge who will make a ruling, which then would give everybody else in michigan a more clear line of what is legal and what isn't.

I would LOVE to get a ticket on something like this, or even a place like stump hill in west branch, just to fight it and get a ruling on it.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:38 PM   #27
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i understand if the people where monitoring this website. Infact it could be a great. If they would chime in and be like look you can play _______ but avoid going into ___________. Save everyone time and headaches. I think that trail look legal to me so i would have been driving it too. I would have to say fight this one.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkstoncracker View Post
There are many DNR officers on this site, and I highly doubt they would do that, especially if its legal to be there. I'm guessing they just ran into a very over-zealous DNR officer.

Can you guys post up the officers name?
The tickets were issued by the federal forest service and I seen 2 FFS trucks with 2 officers in each one, But I was told that there was another one in the back of the line so maybe 3 FFS trucks and 6 officers.
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:52 PM   #29
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I know for a fact it isnt illegal i was out there right around the corner and talked to a Forest service
officer that another person with me asked if we were on legal property and he said yes as long
as we stayed away from the marked dirtbike trails and Private property, so i WOULDN'T pay
the ticket!
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:57 PM   #30
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"District Ranger" is a United States Forest Service officer and is the District Ranger for the Manistee National Forest. He is not a member of the Michigan DNR. He has several federal law enforcement officers under him who enforce this sort of thing.

"District Ranger" has posted in these threads before warning people ahead of time. A call to the Cadillac or Baldwin Forest Service Offices BEFORE the ride would make a big difference. You could have emailed them the proposed route you wanted to go and gotten accurate information before you even left. If you're going to lead a trail ride that is what you need to do (sad but true).

Also, many County Sheriff's Departments get grants from both the Michigan DNR and the United States Forest Service for extra patrol on those lands to enforce ORV laws. So, you may run into Sheriff Deputies, DNR Conservation Officers or USFS Enforcement Officers on Federal lands.

That said, I'll bet that deer hunters traversing those very roads in their pickup trucks never even see a forest service enforcement officer and if they did they wouldn't get stopped. As soon as you show up in a Jeep it is sometimes assumed that you are "guilty" of being some wildflower crushing, wetland wrecking, piping plover smashing son of a bitch.

Now that we have an ultra liberal as President, there will be more of this B.S. and pretty soon we won't be able to use the "King's Forest" at all (unless we are hippy-fag hikers eating freeze dried food and wiping our asses with instantly deteriorating toilet paper).
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Old June 28th, 2009, 10:58 PM   #31
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Plus i dont like it out there at night because the cops and DNR are always out
there because people have parties in the woods not to far from where they said
it was illegal the cops were out there today i seen them when i was in my girlfriends car just ridin around
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:12 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak View Post
your GPS wont show most of the 2tracks or forest roads, mine was the same way.
I was geocaching up in Frederic, Mi all weekend long and was down two tracks most of the time. All of which showed up on my GPS as roads. I have a Garmin "Jeep TrailGuide" GPS though. I don't know if that makes a difference.

I kept my eyes peeled to look out to make sure I was on legal trails/roads and that there were no signs or warnings that said turn back or no vehicles allowed.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:15 AM   #33
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I guess software makes a different, I have the Delorm on my computer, and its not marked clearly when its a seasonal road, but most of them are not on my map.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 05:08 AM   #34
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please guys, fight this to the end! i will help in whatever way i can! is it possible to get a paypal account setup for lawyer fees?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 07:43 AM   #35
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Once the parties involved decide what cousre of action they would like to take, please throw me a PM to see if members of Great Lakes Four Wheel Drive Association may be of service.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 08:08 AM   #36
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So was it DNR or USFS that gave the tickets out?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #37
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So was it DNR or USFS that gave the tickets out?
USFS
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:03 AM   #38
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Well i would like to thank everyone for your support and willing to helps I am sure curbdog and Handx and also atomic and myself would like to say thankyou cuz it is a bunch of B.S. and curbdog you were right I think this will be bigger than the four of us and maybe we make the rules a little more understandable for everyone and make wheeling fun again
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #39
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thanks for all of the support from everybody, the officer told me that if we want to fight it we have to go to federal court dowtown GR i live 10 miles from there and I drive around the city to get to work so if there is anything I can do that will make it easier for the 4 of us let me know.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:46 AM   #40
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Ok.

Tom Walter (officer #104012) works out of the baldwin office. Anybody can call him up and inquire about this little incident. 231-745-4631. Tom is at extension 3105.

Tom is out of the office for "a couple days" and the District Ranger out of that office is Les Russell. I have a vm in for him, and I'll update when I receive a call back. Secretary said he was in, and asked what I was inquiring about. It then went straight to Mr. Russell's voicemail. I've talked to Mr. Russell before, I'm not sure why, but his name is extremely familiar.

The charge on the ticket is:
36 CFR 261.56 "Use of jeep 4x4 off of designated road"



The actual law reads as:

36 CFR 261.56: Operating a motor vehicle, ATV or ORV off road or off trail, into, across, or over forestland,
wetlands, streams or beaches
. Vehicles may park within 50 feet from the traveled portion of
a road, which is open to vehicle traffic.



I find this very weird that they were written for 261.56 because they were clearly on a "road" or "former road" as defined by the USFS:
Road:
"Road means a road wholly or partly within or adjacent to and serving part of the National Forest System and
which is included in the Forest Development Road System Plan. This includes any hardsurfaced, gravel, or dirt
road, fire lane, abandoned railway, Joggingroad, or travel route cleared to a width greaterthan 40 inches,
established for the purpose of vehicle travel"

Former Road:
"Former road or trail means a road or trail that at one time was established and maintainedfor publicuse but is
no longer open or maintainedfor vehicles or foot travel. Such roads or trails may still be recognizedby the
remaining depressions left by tires, or foot traffic, howeverthe travel corridor
will be revegetatedwith woody trees, shrubs or grasses and such vegetation appears to be upright, undisturbed, and in an untrammeled condition"




They should have been written for this, if the officer actually deemed it illegal:

36 CFR 261.54(e) or 36 CFR 261.55(a): Operating a motor vehicle, ATV or ORV on a forest road, trail, or former road or trail, which
has physical barriers in place, such as: gates, berm of earth, trench, posts, logs, rocks, or
natural vegetation which blocks or impedes passage.



Not sure what implications (if any) that has, but the citations were clearly wrong in the nature they were written.
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