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Old June 4th, 2009, 06:49 PM   #401
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I'm not posting anything on the Mob beats a guys ass Thread, because you actually said something that makes sense, and sounded like a responsible conservative adult.....

It would kill me to have to agree......LOL


So, go wipe the spit from your baby face from you cutting new teeth...LOL
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Old June 4th, 2009, 06:57 PM   #402
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Existence is NOT sufficient evidence to prove a creator.
How about this, you are walking down the beach and see an amazing sand castle but not a soul in sight, no foot prints, nothing, what would your assumptions be? it just happened the waves made the sand castle, the sand came together all on its own, no you would say to yourself, self somebody made the awsome sand castle. Is it such a leap to think as humans to be far more complex and we came together on our own from gew. No. Think of a watch maker and a watch, the watch did not make itself.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #403
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How about this, you are walking down the beach and see an amazing sand castle but not a soul in sight, no foot prints, nothing, what would your assumptions be? it just happened the waves made the sand castle, the sand came together all on its own, no you would say to yourself, self somebody made the awsome sand castle. Is it such a leap to think as humans to be far more complex and we came together on our own from gew. No. Think of a watch maker and a watch, the watch did not make itself.
This is a false analogy, You are claiming that complexity requires design. For the sake of argument I will assume this is true. If the universe requires a super intelligent creator, wouldn't that creator itself be too complex to have just happened? If so who or what created your "watchmaker"?

If you refute this by claiming that a complex deity does not require a designer, then you are also conceding that complexity does NOT require a designer and your entire argument is worthless.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 08:50 PM   #404
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How about this, you are walking down the beach and see an amazing sand castle but not a soul in sight, no foot prints, nothing, what would your assumptions be? it just happened the waves made the sand castle, the sand came together all on its own, no you would say to yourself, self somebody made the awsome sand castle. Is it such a leap to think as humans to be far more complex and we came together on our own from gew. No. Think of a watch maker and a watch, the watch did not make itself.

A bunch of these guy's will be giving testimony some day as to how they found God on Great Lakes 4x4....

Sova will lead the pack.....
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:34 PM   #405
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This is a false analogy, You are claiming that complexity requires design. For the sake of argument I will assume this is true. If the universe requires a super intelligent creator, wouldn't that creator itself be too complex to have just happened? If so who or what created your "watchmaker"?

If you refute this by claiming that a complex deity does not require a designer, then you are also conceding that complexity does NOT require a designer and your entire argument is worthless.
So, how does Science Speculate something from nothing? It makes no Logical sense. Something has to always be. In order for A reaction to start, there has to be something to react. In this case Aber says that there was a creator, in your case (I'm assuming) Matter, or quarks, or something. I just want you to answer how you speculate something non-eternal to just start to happen. It seems to me that that would take more faith then what Me and My fellow Christians Claim.

His Analogy is Completely true. And I think there will be a time when Science will have to regognize a Creator. Not God, not buddha, not Buddy jesus...Just a creator.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #406
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A bunch of these guy's will be giving testimony some day as to how they found God on Great Lakes 4x4....

Sova will lead the pack.....
Amen to that, all we can do is tell em. Plant a seed and His word does not return void.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 09:49 PM   #407
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Christianity is - Must Be! totally committed to the special creation as described in Genesis, and Christianity must fight with its full might, fair or foul against the theroy of evolution
G.Richard Borath, "The Meaning of Evolution", American Athiest, 20,Sept.1979, pg 19
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Old June 4th, 2009, 11:06 PM   #408
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So, how does Science Speculate something from nothing? It makes no Logical sense. Something has to always be. In order for A reaction to start, there has to be something to react. In this case Aber says that there was a creator, in your case (I'm assuming) Matter, or quarks, or something. I just want you to answer how you speculate something non-eternal to just start to happen. It seems to me that that would take more faith then what Me and My fellow Christians Claim.

His Analogy is Completely true. And I think there will be a time when Science will have to regognize a Creator. Not God, not buddha, not Buddy jesus...Just a creator.
Why does there have to be a beginning?

If something has to always be, why is it more logical for a complex eternal creator being, than an infinite universe?
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Old June 5th, 2009, 12:20 AM   #409
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I snorted rice once.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 09:06 AM   #410
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Why does there have to be a beginning?

If something has to always be, why is it more logical for a complex eternal creator being, than an infinite universe?

Hey whats going on, I must have walked in in the middle....hahahha
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Old June 5th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #411
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Why does there have to be a beginning?

If something has to always be, why is it more logical for a complex eternal creator being, than an infinite universe?
I never said there has to be a begining. I was stating that saying that the complex creator is eternal just like something on the "Scienctific side" of the Arguement. YOu can't get something from nothing, there always have to be "Something". So, your response to that post isn't really valid.

Unless you can show me how you get something from Absoultly nothing. No matter how far you go with science, how deep you go on a molecular level, You have to have something from nothing for "Who created the Creator" Arguement to hold any Water.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 10:20 AM   #412
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I never said there has to be a begining. I was stating that saying that the complex creator is eternal just like something on the "Scienctific side" of the Arguement. YOu can't get something from nothing, there always have to be "Something". So, your response to that post isn't really valid.

Unless you can show me how you get something from Absoultly nothing. No matter how far you go with science, how deep you go on a molecular level, You have to have something from nothing for "Who created the Creator" Arguement to hold any Water.
I think you could word this a little better as I am not quite sure what you are asserting here but I will take a shot.

I have never claimed that you can get something from absolutely nothing.


My argument is valid. If you are claiming that complexity requires a creator (which you are) then a complex creator must also have a creator.

My view is that there was never nothing. The universe and the matter/energy within it has always existed in some form. Again, I do not know if this is true, It is just the simplest explanation.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 11:15 AM   #413
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I didn't search yet, but thanks for bringing up the Grand Canyon aber61. Does anyone here think that water could have carved out the Grand Canyon in less than 6,000 years? If this could happen, then we would be able to notice significant changes in rivers

read...http://home.entouch.net/dmd/grandcanyon.htm
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Old June 5th, 2009, 11:48 AM   #414
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I prefer pixie stix.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 04:14 PM   #415
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I didn't search yet, but thanks for bringing up the Grand Canyon aber61. Does anyone here think that water could have carved out the Grand Canyon in less than 6,000 years? If this could happen, then we would be able to notice significant changes in rivers

read...http://home.entouch.net/dmd/grandcanyon.htm
yes I do belive that the Grand Canyon was carved out and quickly, I will do a search on that and when I find something I will post it for u. I would think that the rivers that drain into the Grand Canyon are also possibly proof that it happend quickly and not years as you claim.

Maybe you could figure out for me the population of the earth if it is as old as you claim. Maybe start at lets say 50,000 years. Let me know what kind of figures you come up with.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 06:37 PM   #416
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I think you could word this a little better as I am not quite sure what you are asserting here but I will take a shot.

I have never claimed that you can get something from absolutely nothing.


My argument is valid. If you are claiming that complexity requires a creator (which you are) then a complex creator must also have a creator.

My view is that there was never nothing. The universe and the matter/energy within it has always existed in some form. Again, I do not know if this is true, It is just the simplest explanation.

Ok, I understand that if the Creator was so Complex that he would also have to be created in this context and it does bring up a good point. However, My point was that if Matter/energy exists eternally, why is it wrong to think that a creator can be eternal? Maybe there was another being that created our creator, but still, There has to be some kind of starting intelegence that always was. The matter/Energy always was, science can't prove why it was and we have to just go on "it is". When we get to this point the difference becomes more of a Belief then anything. I choose a Creator because I honestly see his presence every day of my life. You may choose differently. But if science points to a created thing, Too complex for accidents, then people may have to except that there is some form of Intellegence out there (Que X-files Music). Wether that be Aliens or God or something else......I hope I cleared up what I was saying.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 09:17 PM   #417
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Ok, I understand that if the Creator was so Complex that he would also have to be created in this context and it does bring up a good point. However, My point was that if Matter/energy exists eternally, why is it wrong to think that a creator can be eternal? Maybe there was another being that created our creator, but still, There has to be some kind of starting intelegence that always was. The matter/Energy always was, science can't prove why it was and we have to just go on "it is". When we get to this point the difference becomes more of a Belief then anything. I choose a Creator because I honestly see his presence every day of my life. You may choose differently. But if science points to a created thing, Too complex for accidents, then people may have to except that there is some form of Intellegence out there (Que X-files Music). Wether that be Aliens or God or something else......I hope I cleared up what I was saying.
Yup you did for me
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Old June 8th, 2009, 04:09 AM   #418
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yes I do belive that the Grand Canyon was carved out and quickly, I will do a search on that and when I find something I will post it for u. I would think that the rivers that drain into the Grand Canyon are also possibly proof that it happend quickly and not years as you claim.

Maybe you could figure out for me the population of the earth if it is as old as you claim. Maybe start at lets say 50,000 years. Let me know what kind of figures you come up with.
Please let me know how the Grand Canyon could be carved out so quickly, I'm very interested to know.

As far as population, I see no connection between it and the age of the Earth. Especially at times where modern medicine could not save people from massive pandemics.
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Old June 8th, 2009, 09:34 AM   #419
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Please let me know how the Grand Canyon could be carved out so quickly, I'm very interested to know.

As far as population, I see no connection between it and the age of the Earth. Especially at times where modern medicine could not save people from massive pandemics.

THe age of fossils found in The Grand Canyon, and the time it took to create the features, are two entirely different things.

Untill recently the Grand Canyon was thaought to be 5 or 6 million years old, but now it's thought to be 16 to 17 million years old.

Science at it's best an 11 milliion year error as taught to millions of people as fact......

Anyways, even scientists agree they do not know how long it took to create the feautures of the Canyon...
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Old June 8th, 2009, 01:42 PM   #420
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It matters how many samples they take. Sometimes the radio dates can be false, but 95% of the time they are correct. If you look at the data sets for the radio dating methods it's pretty clear that they run very true to what scientists and geographers have estimated the age of the Grand Canyon. It has been figured by water erosion rates and the time it takes to dissipate the minerals from the canyon walls into the sea.

Here's one thing to think about.....Why would someone WANT the Earth to be 6,000 years old? To make their religion seem more true to what they believe. Now why would someone WANT to believe that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old? I couldn't care less. If all of the scientific facts pointed to Earth being 6,000 years old I would have no problem with that, but it doesn't. There is no motive behind the Old Earth theory except observations. There is a massive motive behind the young earth theory and very influential people have been caught red-handed trying to make it APPEAR young.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icr-science.html
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